Ron Brown vs. the ACLU

[huzkerbob]

The ACLU recently filed a complaint against NU assistant Ron Brown over his religious anti drug talks at Nebraska public schools.

 

I was curious to see what other Huskerboarders think about this issue. I will admit that my personal feelings are that the kind of message Ron Brown speaks about does have a place. But I'm not sure that the place is in public schools. I myself have heard Ron Brown speak, but given that it was an FCA fund raising event, i was expecting a heavily religious message. And that is exactly what I heard. In fact I would describe it as even being uber-christian. My biggest concern is that in a public school setting these views would be inappropriate, because after all, these coaches are supposed to be giving anti-drug speeches, not christian ministries.

 

Although I'm sure my views aren't extremely popular, I do feel that American society in general has become very lax with the idea of separation of church and state, especially when the churches or ideologies involved are supported by such a large percentage of the population. I think it has come to a point where many people feel that their views have a natural right to be expressed, and that any attempt to keep these ideals out of governmental forums or public schools is an attack on those beliefs. Instead of being a fundamental responsibility of citizens to keep any religious beliefs independent of those institutions in order to insure that the most powerful groups cannot force their beliefs on those who don't share them. Which I believe most can attest is exactly what happens when one group has a louder voice than that of others.

 

Not surprisingly coach Brown refused to give an inch on the topic. Even going so far as to say that “It’s an intimidation issue, and I’m not intimidated,”. Which I find a bit over the top, and in a way predictable. As I've said before, my feeling is that voicing concerns about people being allowed to proselytize in schools should not be seen as an attack, or in Brown's words intimidation. If anything, I feel it should be seen as a legitimate concern expressed by those that have alternative views to those that are being given such a large forum.

 

Thoughts?

[knapplc]

Coach Brown is a very passionate man. You cannot separate the man from his views - they are part and parcel. If you have him speak at your school you're going to get a healthy dose of Christ in his address. If people don't know that by now... they've been living under a rock. So if there's a problem with having Coach Brown speak his message of Christianity at schools, that's on the school. It'd be like inviting Ted Nugent to speak and being shocked that he brought up gun rights.

 

Should it be permissible for Coach Brown to proselytize at a public school? That's a tough one. I think he should be allowed to speak, but I also think the students should be allowed to opt out, with zero penalties. Parents should be made fully aware of the speaker and the message of the upcoming speech with enough notice that they can make a decision on what they want their child to hear.

[NUance]

How audacious of Ron Brown to mix a religious theme into his talk against drugs and alcohol given to high school children. This is clearly a flagrant violation of the 1st amendment precept that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

 

Oh where is that little sarcasm emoticon when you need it?

[Husker_x]

That's a tough one. I think some of it depends on the particulars of his talk. Nothing wrong with anyone Christian or not giving an anti-drug talk. Believing or not believing in Jesus has nothing whatever to do with how harmful and destructive narcotics are. If Brown is somehow insinuating in his message that only God can get you off drugs or keep you from them, he's wrong for one, and probably infringing heavily on the church/state line for two.

 

Another way to think about the issue is to imagine Richard Dawkins coming into a classroom filled with (presumably) Christian children and informing them that only casting off Jesus will get you off drugs. What would the reaction be? I think something along the lines of mushroom cloud over schoolyard.

 

If the students can opt out of the talk––i.e. children of different or non-religious backgrounds aren't proselytized to against their will––I guess I don't see much of an issue. It most definitely could be an issue if the talk was phrased as a come to Jesus moment, but somehow I doubt that's the case.

 

Regardless, more important than what Brown says or doesn't say is that critical thinking is applied to both the talk and all other speakers that present material.

[AR Husker Fan]

Actually, the ACLU did NOT file a complaint against Ron Brown. As the article makes clear, the complaint was against the schools, and Ron was one of two speakers listed as examples of the actions of the schools to promote a particular religous view.

 

Schools are an arm of the government, and it falls to them to ensure that they are complying with the First Amendment. If they provide a forum to Ron Brown, that's not Brown's fault or concern; it is, however, improper of the schools.

 

The ACLU's complaint is quite legitimate, and personally, I'm happy to see them do it. I don't want the government - through the schools or other means - promoting a particular form of faith.

[huskerjack23]

How audacious of Ron Brown to mix a religious theme into his talk against drugs and alcohol given to high school children. This is clearly a flagrant violation of the 1st amendment precept that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

 

Oh where is that little sarcasm emoticon when you need it?

You ruined a perfectly valid concern with your additional question.

[huzkerbob]

Actually, the ACLU did NOT file a complaint against Ron Brown. As the article makes clear, the complaint was against the schools, and Ron was one of two speakers listed as examples of the actions of the schools to promote a particular religous view.

 

Schools are an arm of the government, and it falls to them to ensure that they are complying with the First Amendment. If they provide a forum to Ron Brown, that's not Brown's fault or concern; it is, however, improper of the schools.

 

The ACLU's complaint is quite legitimate, and personally, I'm happy to see them do it. I don't want the government - through the schools or other means - promoting a particular form of faith.

 

I feel the same way, and am saddened that so many people posting responses to the linked articles attack the ACLU by calling them things like a joke, an embarrassment, scum, etc, etc. I mean, how dare a group of people come together to protect the civil liberties of all citizens. The nerve! I guess I just don't understand the need by some to discredit any organization the would dare disagree or challenge their beliefs. I may be repeating myself, but just because you don't agree with their concerns doesn't mean you have to disparage that group in every conceivable way. (Where is Jon Stewart when you need him? Restore the sanity!)

[74Hunter]

Actually, the ACLU did NOT file a complaint against Ron Brown. As the article makes clear, the complaint was against the schools, and Ron was one of two speakers listed as examples of the actions of the schools to promote a particular religous view.

 

Schools are an arm of the government, and it falls to them to ensure that they are complying with the First Amendment. If they provide a forum to Ron Brown, that's not Brown's fault or concern; it is, however, improper of the schools.

 

The ACLU's complaint is quite legitimate, and personally, I'm happy to see them do it. I don't want the government - through the schools or other means - promoting a particular form of faith.

 

I feel the same way, and am saddened that so many people posting responses to the linked articles attack the ACLU by calling them things like a joke, an embarrassment, scum, etc, etc. I mean, how dare a group of people come together to protect the civil liberties of all citizens. The nerve! I guess I just don't understand the need by some to discredit any organization the would dare disagree or challenge their beliefs. I may be repeating myself, but just because you don't agree with their concerns doesn't mean you have to disparage that group in every conceivable way. (Where is Jon Stewart when you need him? Restore the sanity!)

I see it differently. I feel that the ACLU should do its (cough, cough) job and SUPPORT Ron Brown's first Amendment right. By Brown being Christian and him stating that he gets his strength in fighting against drugs and alcohol from Christ, is not the same as the State (school) sponsoring or establishing religion. The last time I checked, the ACLU doesn't protect anyone's civil liberties, rather, they are an activist organization that just wants it name in the media. If this speaker were Muslim, we wouldn't hear anything from the ALCU. Since when did the ALCU become a specifically anti-Christian organization?

 

Besides, it is my understanding that students do have the right to opt out of his speech, which Coach Brown supports.

[Hingle McCringleberry]

Actually, the ACLU did NOT file a complaint against Ron Brown. As the article makes clear, the complaint was against the schools, and Ron was one of two speakers listed as examples of the actions of the schools to promote a particular religous view.

 

Schools are an arm of the government, and it falls to them to ensure that they are complying with the First Amendment. If they provide a forum to Ron Brown, that's not Brown's fault or concern; it is, however, improper of the schools.

 

The ACLU's complaint is quite legitimate, and personally, I'm happy to see them do it. I don't want the government - through the schools or other means - promoting a particular form of faith.

 

I feel the same way, and am saddened that so many people posting responses to the linked articles attack the ACLU by calling them things like a joke, an embarrassment, scum, etc, etc. I mean, how dare a group of people come together to protect the civil liberties of all citizens. The nerve! I guess I just don't understand the need by some to discredit any organization the would dare disagree or challenge their beliefs. I may be repeating myself, but just because you don't agree with their concerns doesn't mean you have to disparage that group in every conceivable way. (Where is Jon Stewart when you need him? Restore the sanity!)

 

Ron Brown talked abut God? Oh man they better sue!!! Maybe next time they can bring in someone more acceptable... I know how about Jason Peter, he can tell a bunch of 6th graders how awesome it was doing drugs with hookers on a private plane, all the while dropping f bombs on them, 'cause he is so in your face. Or maybe NAMBLA can send someone over, and talk about sexuality.. In the end we should all just get back to singing gospel songs with God removed and Obama put in. I wonder how the ACLU's case on that one is going, oh yeah that wasn't promoting anything...

[dizzturbedNUfan]

The ACLU is a group full of a bunch of freak'n idiots, (i had to edit myself) I'd like to lock them in a cage full of porcupines. I'm not a religious person so I don't give a crap one way or the other about somebody speaking about god, ala or fred flintstone. What I do care about is that the people that don't want to hear the speech seem to have all the rights. B@llSh$t! I have just as much of a right to hear the person speak if I want to, you don't like it, well then get your happy freak'n ass up and leave! I hope everybody has a good day!

[UGAHusker]

I think that the ACLU is more concerned with the children's rights in these circumstances than with the seperation of church and state issue. The part of the article that states,

 

"Some complaints have described the revival-show atmosphere that happens in the school gym, complete with music and the speaker asking all students who now will accept Jesus Christ's narrow path to come down front with him"

 

describes and environemnt that essentially splits the children present into Christians and non-Christians with the message basically saying "hey, if you accept Jesus Christ right here and now, you get to come up with the super-cool Nebraska football coach in front of the whole school while the non-Christians have to remain in there seats". If any teacher or administrator were to go down, it would create a "hostile teaching environmnet" issue nightmare. I too think the issue is more with the schools bringing Brown in than his message itself (I'm personally a big fan of his "I Can" book) and can definitely see why he would be reluctant to change his message or performance to accomodate. The schools should get another speaker if they don't want the entire show/message.

[carlfense]

The ACLU is a group full of a bunch of freak'n idiots, (i had to edit myself) I'd like to lock them in a cage full of porcupines. I'm not a religious person so I don't give a crap one way or the other about somebody speaking about god, ala or fred flintstone. What I do care about is that the people that don't want to hear the speech seem to have all the rights. B@llSh$t! I have just as much of a right to hear the person speak if I want to, you don't like it, well then get your happy freak'n ass up and leave! I hope everybody has a good day!

 

What if the children are required to be there? (as in the speech occurred during school hours.)

 

If it's voluntary and not during school I have few problems with it. If not, I agree fully with the ACLU.

[74Hunter]

I think that the ACLU is more concerned with the children's rights in these circumstances than with the seperation of church and state issue. The part of the article that states,

 

"Some complaints have described the revival-show atmosphere that happens in the school gym, complete with music and the speaker asking all students who now will accept Jesus Christ's narrow path to come down front with him"

My understanding is that this is NOT how his speaking appearances go.

 

What if the children are required to be there? (as in the speech occurred during school hours.)

 

If it's voluntary and not during school I have few problems with it. If not, I agree fully with the ACLU

My understanding is that this is totally voluntary.

[dizzturbedNUfan]

The ACLU is a group full of a bunch of freak'n idiots, (i had to edit myself) I'd like to lock them in a cage full of porcupines. I'm not a religious person so I don't give a crap one way or the other about somebody speaking about god, ala or fred flintstone. What I do care about is that the people that don't want to hear the speech seem to have all the rights. B@llSh$t! I have just as much of a right to hear the person speak if I want to, you don't like it, well then get your happy freak'n ass up and leave! I hope everybody has a good day!

 

What if the children are required to be there? (as in the speech occurred during school hours.)

 

If it's voluntary and not during school I have few problems with it. If not, I agree fully with the ACLU.

Then why is okay to teach our children about other people's belief's in school? Why is it that when telling students about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Indian beliefs, or Greek Mythology it's ok because we are broadening their horizons? Metion anything about Christianity and holy hell everybody get's their pantys in a wad. Right now my 9 year old son is learning how Aztecs used to rip out the heart of another human everyday because if they didn't they beleived that the sun wouldn't come up. I'm I so stupid to beleive that because somebody is teaching that in school he is going to start sacrificing humans everyday? No I don't think so, Why? Because I have confidence in my kid, he isn't pampered and sheltered. If my son got up and walk out of class because he didn't want to hear about what the Jew's believe he would fail and get kicked out of school becasue he doesn't want to learn. It's time to put your big boy pants on people, I know it's tough world out there but with the help of our mommy's we can make it through.

[carlfense]

The ACLU is a group full of a bunch of freak'n idiots, (i had to edit myself) I'd like to lock them in a cage full of porcupines. I'm not a religious person so I don't give a crap one way or the other about somebody speaking about god, ala or fred flintstone. What I do care about is that the people that don't want to hear the speech seem to have all the rights. B@llSh$t! I have just as much of a right to hear the person speak if I want to, you don't like it, well then get your happy freak'n ass up and leave! I hope everybody has a good day!

 

What if the children are required to be there? (as in the speech occurred during school hours.)

 

If it's voluntary and not during school I have few problems with it. If not, I agree fully with the ACLU.

Then why is okay to teach our children about other people's belief's in school? Why is it that when telling students about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Indian beliefs, or Greek Mythology it's ok because we are broadening their horizons? Metion anything about Christianity and holy hell everybody get's their pantys in a wad. Right now my 9 year old son is learning how Aztecs used to rip out the heart of another human everyday because if they didn't they beleived that the sun wouldn't come up. I'm I so stupid to beleive that because somebody is teaching that in school he is going to start sacrificing humans everyday? No I don't think so, Why? Because I have confidence in my kid, he isn't pampered and sheltered. If my son got up and walk out of class because he didn't want to hear about what the Jew's believe he would fail and get kicked out of school becasue he doesn't want to learn. It's time to put your big boy pants on people, I know it's tough world out there but with the help of our mommy's we can make it through.

Seriously? You can't see the difference between teaching the history behind the various religions, and preaching?

 

For example . . . I don't think there are a lot of people out there actively trying to convert your children to Greek Mythology. There ARE, however, people actively seeking to convert your children to Islam, Christianity, etc. THAT has no place in public schools.

 

I'm drawing no distinctions here. If Ron Brown had been proselytizing about the Islamic faith I'd be just as against it occurring during school hours. Go ahead and spin it like you want to spin it.

 

(I certainly hope that you are not one of those people who will beat their chest about how great the US Constitution is . . . and then turn around and belittle protections offered under the Constitution that they think are unnecessary.)