Occupy Wall Street

[Sub-Husker]

This is one thing I don't get. Why are people so focused on how much someone else makes? As long as I'm doing well, and perhaps getting some forward momentum going, I'm happy. If someone makes more than me, good for them. I don't begrudge them and they aren't taking money out of my pocket.

 

Good for you, that you haven't been subject to economic injustice.

 

That your job hasn't been outsourced, and that you have not lost your savings, your health care, or your home.

 

However many people have lost those things, and see the control that the wealthy have over our politicians and the laws and regulations they have pushed for.

 

In addition I see our hawkish foreign policy as another outcome of the wealthy owning our government.

 

As a former member of the automotive industry, I got hit pretty hard a few years ago. In October of 2008, I started laying off 2-3 people every month. In December, I was told that my number would likely be coming soon.

 

By January, I was laid off. While I was gone, the company stopped the pension program and the 401K match.

 

Is it ok if my opinion is different than yours?

 

I left automotive in 2006, we continually had to do the impossible with less people. The previous two companies I had worked for moved to China and Brazil, and my last company started oursoursing more work to India, China and S Korea... along with moving the entire operation to western Tennessee. I was told to make life unbearable for six of my engineers so they would quit before the layoff happend, and I refused. There is alot more to what happened, but I was laid off a few months later.

 

I was doing fine, and started doing contract work for a few companies, including some defense work. When the economy showed signs of collapse late in 2008 (all but one of my contracts were to lapse), I took another full time position.

 

I had been doing very well then, and am doing fine now. My wife also has a great job. Despite putting three children through college (one graduated, one's a senior, one's a junior) and having two newer cars, the only debt we have is a mortgage.

 

But it is not my situation that concerns me, it is that of my neighbors and of the unemployed people I used to work with. I have great health care, a nice home, savings, etc... but that is not the case with a growing segment of our population.

[Sub-Husker]

You are making assumptions about me that are incorrect. That's beside the point, though.

 

I don't begrudge them and they aren't taking money out of my pocket.

 

I was going by this statement.

 

You seem to be mashing two issues together that are separate issues - income disparity and power.

 

It isn't a new thing that the rich (and therefore powerful) have a stranglehold on our government. It's just that in previous years we've been placated enough that we ignored it. But when our comforts have been removed, or we fear they may be removed, well then - now we suddenly notice that our system of government is gamed to grant greater advantage to those who have power. If jobs become more available people will once again go back into their TV watching and possession acquisition stupor and forget all about the glimpse behind the curtain.

 

They are not separate issues, they are very closely linked with each other. That stranglehold is getting continually tighter and tighter as corporate citizens gain power and We the People have our constitutional freedoms chipped away at. Campaign finance has become a joke, the wealthiest flat out buy candidates with their influence, and the media outlets they own only publicize their candidates. Impediments have been put in the way of voting for our youngest and our minority voters, and roadblocks are being put in the way of third parties from succeeding (see David Sirota, The Uprising).

 

You are correct in that most Americans have not been paying attention while things were going well, and most are still not. What is even more pathetic is that we are not paying attention to the plights of the peoples we occupy, bomb and blockade.

 

As for income disparity, it isn't that everyone else is getting poorer (we are experiencing a dip, though, because we are in a recession, but statistically its a small dip) that is creating the disparity. It's the the rich are getting MUCH more rich while the rest of us are making more modest increases. Again - this is off due to the recession, but only a slight dip.

 

I disagree with you very strongly on this, many more people are getting poorer, entering poverty, and losing everything including their health. The only thing that keeps the average income up is the rate of growth at the top.

[NEWICOsker]

Dang, Calla nailed this... As Sub said we've been talking about this a lot at the other site. Calla put in much better words than I have.

 

I agree that there are plenty of reasons to be frustrated right now and support this group's right to protest. But, unfortunately, in a leadership vacuum (like what exists with this movement) the more radical personalities tend to take over. I simply can't support a group that has started using the tactics this group is now using. In fact, they are terrorizing the other part of the 99% (those of that go to work every day) - tellers at banks, dock workers, operations people at Wall Street firms, etc.

 

Frankly , this group could learn something about organization, leadership, and getting their message across from the Tea Party.

[Sub-Husker]

Frankly , this group could learn something about organization, leadership, and getting their message across from the Tea Party.

 

In my view the goals of OWS and the TP are diametrically opposed... with the goals of the TP being that of corporate America.

 

Most OWS GAs will not take money from a George Soros or David Koch.

 

The GAs are organizing and a unified platform is in the works, but this will take time for an organization that grew so fast.

 

Unfortunately the ranks have been infiltrated by the types of thugs that we have seen in Denver and Oakland.

[Cactusboy]

 

As for income disparity, it isn't that everyone else is getting poorer (we are experiencing a dip, though, because we are in a recession, but statistically its a small dip) that is creating the disparity. It's the the rich are getting MUCH more rich while the rest of us are making more modest increases. Again - this is off due to the recession, but only a slight dip.

 

BUT...how are they able to make these modest increases? 2 earner families...longer hours. And modest is subjective, so it's hard for me to attack that word, but when you include inflation wages have been virtually stagnant. Sure people have more possessions, etc...but then look at the increases in personal debt that allowed a lot of that.

[Cactusboy]

This is one thing I don't get. Why are people so focused on how much someone else makes? As long as I'm doing well, and perhaps getting some forward momentum going, I'm happy. If someone makes more than me, good for them. I don't begrudge them and they aren't taking money out of my pocket.

 

Good for you, that you haven't been subject to economic injustice.

 

That your job hasn't been outsourced, and that you have not lost your savings, your health care, or your home.

 

However many people have lost those things, and see the control that the wealthy have over our politicians and the laws and regulations they have pushed for.

 

In addition I see our hawkish foreign policy as another outcome of the wealthy owning our government.

 

As a former member of the automotive industry, I got hit pretty hard a few years ago. In October of 2008, I started laying off 2-3 people every month. In December, I was told that my number would likely be coming soon.

 

By January, I was laid off. While I was gone, the company stopped the pension program and the 401K match.

 

Is it ok if my opinion is different than yours?

 

I left automotive in 2006, we continually had to do the impossible with less people. The previous two companies I had worked for moved to China and Brazil, and my last company started oursoursing more work to India, China and S Korea... along with moving the entire operation to western Tennessee. I was told to make life unbearable for six of my engineers so they would quit before the layoff happend, and I refused. There is alot more to what happened, but I was laid off a few months later.

 

I was doing fine, and started doing contract work for a few companies, including some defense work. When the economy showed signs of collapse late in 2008 (all but one of my contracts were to lapse), I took another full time position.

 

I had been doing very well then, and am doing fine now. My wife also has a great job. Despite putting three children through college (one graduated, one's a senior, one's a junior) and having two newer cars, the only debt we have is a mortgage.

 

But it is not my situation that concerns me, it is that of my neighbors and of the unemployed people I used to work with. I have great health care, a nice home, savings, etc... but that is not the case with a growing segment of our population.

 

You are a great man and we need more people like this. It's easy to get riled up and fight when you're doing it for yourself. It's much more when you do it for others. There's a really good quote about this but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

[NEWICOsker]

Frankly , this group could learn something about organization, leadership, and getting their message across from the Tea Party.

 

In my view the goals of OWS and the TP are diametrically opposed... with the goals of the TP being that of corporate America.

 

Most OWS GAs will not take money from a George Soros or David Koch.

 

The GAs are organizing and a unified platform is in the works, but this will take time for an organization that grew so fast.

 

Unfortunately the ranks have been infiltrated by the types of thugs that we have seen in Denver and Oakland.

 

I agree that the agendas are very different and that's fine. But, in terms of being a true activist group and organization, OWS needs to learn from groups that have successfully (for the most part) been able to define an agenda and keep out the riff-raff.

 

Until they do that, the problems you're seeing in Denver, Oakland, and now Seattle are going to continue to grow.

[Sub-Husker]

By the way... welcome!

 

I agree that the agendas are very different and that's fine. But, in terms of being a true activist group and organization, OWS needs to learn from groups that have successfully (for the most part) been able to define an agenda and keep out the riff-raff.

 

Until they do that, the problems you're seeing in Denver, Oakland, and now Seattle are going to continue to grow.

 

The last large scale demonstrations we had in this country were for civil rights and against the Vietnam war.

 

Those demonstrations had their shares of problems, and the same will be true of OWS.

 

And they started out leaderless as well. MLK emerged as a leading voice of civil rights, but he wasn't the only voice.

 

There was no one voice for the anti-war movement.

[Tulsa-Husker]

This might be hurtful . . . but I don't care if you take me seriously. I'm a registered independent who might end up being pushed into the Democratic party by the Bagger craziness that has infected the GOP. Not ready to take that step yet but I do wish that I could vote in a primary. No doubt which party I would pick if I were forced to make that decision today. Not sure how that is disingenuous but I suppose people will see what they want to see.

 

Yeah, sure, blame the Tea Party for your possible shift in philosophy. If you are that weak in your convictions, it speaks of your character.

 

Not the Tea Party per se, but the whole direction of the party. My convictions didn't change; the GOP changed. A party that rejects anyone who approaches moderation has no place for me. The GOP is no longer the party of Lincoln . . . hell . . . for that matter they are no longer the party of Reagan. They are the party of Palin/Perry/Cain/Limbaugh. Is there any wonder why the GOP will be tailing off with the deaths of the boomers?

 

Enjoy your GOP extremism and personal attacks.

 

What about the Democratic party leaving the Democratic party of Sam Nunn, Scoop Jackson, JFK, Truman and even HHH or even Bill Clinton ? Talk about extreme - we have leftist extremists running that party now.

[Sub-Husker]

What about the Democratic party leaving the Democratic party of Sam Nunn, Scoop Jackson, JFK, Truman and even HHH or even Bill Clinton.

 

The branch of the Democrat Party you are talking about is the Blue Dogs... who are basically socially liberal conservative Republicans.

 

Talk about extreme - we have leftist extremists running that party now.

 

Serious question... please name the "leftist extremists" who are running that party.

 

Note: Even one will do!

[Malth]

This might be hurtful . . . but I don't care if you take me seriously. I'm a registered independent who might end up being pushed into the Democratic party by the Bagger craziness that has infected the GOP. Not ready to take that step yet but I do wish that I could vote in a primary. No doubt which party I would pick if I were forced to make that decision today. Not sure how that is disingenuous but I suppose people will see what they want to see.

 

Yeah, sure, blame the Tea Party for your possible shift in philosophy. If you are that weak in your convictions, it speaks of your character.

 

Not the Tea Party per se, but the whole direction of the party. My convictions didn't change; the GOP changed. A party that rejects anyone who approaches moderation has no place for me. The GOP is no longer the party of Lincoln . . . hell . . . for that matter they are no longer the party of Reagan. They are the party of Palin/Perry/Cain/Limbaugh. Is there any wonder why the GOP will be tailing off with the deaths of the boomers?

 

Enjoy your GOP extremism and personal attacks.

 

What about the Democratic party leaving the Democratic party of Sam Nunn, Scoop Jackson, JFK, Truman and even HHH or even Bill Clinton ? Talk about extreme - we have leftist extremists running that party now.

 

lmao, please. The only way you can call them extreme is in direct comparison to the tea baggers. Obama is pushing many of the same ideas that moderate Republicans have pushed in the past.

 

Perspective. Get some.

[Malth]

This is one thing I don't get. Why are people so focused on how much someone else makes? As long as I'm doing well, and perhaps getting some forward momentum going, I'm happy. If someone makes more than me, good for them. I don't begrudge them and they aren't taking money out of my pocket.

 

Because extreme disparity is damaging to an economy. They ARE taking money out of your pocket in a sense. In the past 30 years, middle class income has been stagnant while the top .01% has reaped ALL of the benefits. The top .01% isn't what drives the economy, it's the middle class.

 

The last time there was this much disparity was immediately preceding the Great Depression. For other historical examples, I would suggest reading up on the French Revolution.

 

Rich people can make as much as they want. No one is begrudging them simply because they are rich. But it IS possible for them to get "too much" wealth which starts having serious effects on the economy.

 

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

 

 

And knappic, that's cool you have a job. Now look at the rest of the country. Don't extrapolate your personal situation to make a generalization.

[gobiggergoredder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFZrNSa3b8g&feature=related

Seems like a pretty passionate kid.

You can see what the problem is with the OWS movement at about minute 8. Some freeloader that doesn't add to society in any way whatsoever says something to the effect "Hey man...if you wanna protest police brutality, come over here man". They have no agenda.

[knapplc]

And knappic, that's cool you have a job. Now look at the rest of the country. Don't extrapolate your personal situation to make a generalization.

 

I have yet to talk to an Occupier here in Lincoln that doesn't have a job. I don't believe joblessness is a prerequisite for Occupying.

[Cactusboy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFZrNSa3b8g&feature=related

 

Seems like a pretty passionate kid.

 

You can see what the problem is with the OWS movement at about minute 8. Some freeloader that doesn't add to society in any way whatsoever says something to the effect "Hey man...if you wanna protest police brutality, come over here man". They have no agenda.

 

 

ehh...he lost me when he starting talking about the Fed govt is only suppose to protect our borders. If that's the case we'd have segregation.