Enhance Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 This is all good and all, but it's the same circle of BS that goes on in the other religious forums. Whenever you assert a claim, it is your responsibility to prove that claim, not the responsibility of others to disprove it. You don't see people coming up with hypotheses using the scientific method and then telling someone else on the other side of the fence to prove it wrong. That's not how it works. Of course, it's the religious person's response to say I can't prove it, it's just a belief/faith, and that's all there is to it. Fine and dandy by my standards, even though I disagree with it. The real crux of this thread is supposed to be whether or not OP was healed by God. I agree with what you're saying to a certain extent however, there are a few minor problems. I have asserted some claims that are impossible to prove. That doesn't automatically make them false. I also realize people do not have to accept my claims. They simply are what they are. It has not been my intention at all to claim that others need to accept them as being true. I would hope some people might believe that I am not making up stories but I fully understand being skeptical. Like I said earlier, I too am skeptical when people make claims like this and I do not accept them as absolute truth unless they can be proven. And actually I think in the scientific world you do see people making claims and people on the other side of the fence attempting to disprove them. In fact I think that happens a lot. You are correct about the crux of this thread but I'm pretty sure there is not a single person (except possibly the OP) involved in this discussion that can get to the bottom of whether or not he was actually healed by God. So that is why the discussion has turned to ancillary issues. My only position on the OP's claim is that I do believe it is possible. Anyone who makes a claim stronger than thinking it is possible or that it is highly unlikely is just blowing smoke because they can't prove squat. True, but then you've come full circle back to the idea that just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't true/false. I look at the world around me as evidence that God didn't heal OP. My grandmother was one of the sweetest people in the world - she died of ovarian cancer. Every day, a child is born dead. Hundreds of newborns never make it to their first birthday. The list of unjust occurrences just goes on and on, and is probably longer than the list of people who claim they were miraculously healed. I don't want to rehash the points I've already made through the pages of this thread, because I've already had to counter them several times. It's just impossible for me to ever believe 'God' intervenes in our lives. If he does, he's criminally unfair. Where do we draw the line as to where God's power starts and stops? The worst scenario I can think of is this - let's say God really did heal OP. Why, then, did he let thousands of people die, and millions of Americans suffer, by allowing terrorists to destroy two buildings in New York City? I'm a hard skeptic, and it's things like that which make me believe that whatever is out there simply leaves us to our own devices. Link to comment
muzicman0 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 someone, quick, prove to me that evolution is real. No assumptions are allowed, and also no observations are allowed. only hard facts. Link to comment
carlfense Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 someone, quick, prove to me that evolution is real. No assumptions are allowed, and also no observations are allowed. only hard facts. No observations allowed? Eh? Link to comment
muzicman0 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 that seems to be the standard we are held to. Link to comment
carlfense Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 that seems to be the standard we are held to. How so? Link to comment
Husker_x Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 someone, quick, prove to me that evolution is real. No assumptions are allowed, and also no observations are allowed. only hard facts. Evolution is a fact. Link to comment
muzicman0 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 anything we observe and report is reduced to 'fantasy'. Link to comment
muzicman0 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 Evolution is a fact. then prove it. Link to comment
The Maudfather Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 This is about to get good. Link to comment
zoogs Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 someone, quick, prove to me that evolution is real. No assumptions are allowed, and also no observations are allowed. only hard facts. Evolution has a mountain of evidence in support of it. Scientific observation is different from lightly drawn conclusions from some story or anecdotal evidence. I don't think you have a good grasp of what is meant by 'evidence.' The standard we are held to as far as evidence goes is the standard set forth by the scientific method. Evolution is also the central foundation of modern biology. It's not optional. You don't get biology without it. It's not some tangential, unrelated idea that doesn't have to be right. Of course it's not completely understood, but few things are. A good comparison is let's say, quantum theory. Without it, modern computing does not exist. The fact that I am typing this says otherwise. Some people don't "believe" in evolution simply because they don't want to, or believe they should not, based on their religion. It's simply denial. How you want to reconcile our knowledge of life and evolution with your religion is entirely your choice, but it's not possible to make a serious challenge to it. A personal lack of understanding is not a serious challenge. If you really want to learn about evolution, I suggest that you go and learn about it. With an open mind, as science requires. I also suggest learning about the scientific method, so that you might understand the difference in credibility between empirical documented and reproducible observation, as well as the carefully drawn and limited conclusions based on them, and 'some guy said he saw / did this.' You'll find science is very honest about what it does or does not know, and how well it does or does not know it. Link to comment
knapplc Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Evolution is a fact. then prove it. Here's the problem with your gambit. Let's say nobody posts anything that you're willing to accept as "proof" of evolution. That doesn't mean that the one god you choose to worship out of the literally thousands of gods in human history is real. Nor, coincidentally, does the absence of evolution mean there is a god. It could point to aliens. It could point to random cosmic chance. It could point to anything. Nor, for that matter, does the existence of evolution necessarily mean the god you picked doesn't exist. Not really sure where you're going with this, but I don't think it's a fruitful avenue. But whatever. Link to comment
Enhance Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 My mind is being literally blown about at the synapses by this. Link to comment
muzicman0 Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 Evolution has a mountain of evidence in support of it. Scientific observation is different from lightly drawn conclusions from some story or anecdotal evidence. I don't think you have a good grasp of what is meant by 'evidence.' I have read a lot of the evidence...won't say I understand it all. Most of the evidence takes about as much faith to believe as I have to believe in my God. Evolution is also the central foundation of modern biology. It's not optional. You don't get biology without it. It's not some tangential, unrelated idea that doesn't have to be right. Of course it's not completely understood, but few things are. A good comparison is let's say, quantum theory. Without it, modern computing does not exist. The fact that I am typing this says otherwise. LOL! Modern biology requires evolution? That's assuming you don't believe there was a creator. Some people don't "believe" in evolution simply because they don't want to, or believe they should not, based on their religion. It's simply denial. How you want to reconcile our knowledge of life and evolution with your religion is entirely your choice, but it's not possible to make a serious challenge to it. but I say evolution is a fantasy. So, based on this thread, it is your job to prove it to me...so prove it. 1 Link to comment
bhamHusker Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 The whole discussion is pointless when those arguing from a supernatural perspective don't even possess a passing understanding (as evidenced by the challenge above) of the vocabulary of science, let alone the larger concepts. Their delusions are well protected by a carefully constructed shell of fables, false equivalences, and willful scientific ignorance. Good luck trying to crack that nut. Link to comment
zoogs Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I have read a lot of the evidence...won't say I understand it all. Most of the evidence takes about as much faith to believe as I have to believe in my God. This is simply wrong.LOL! Modern biology requires evolution? That's assuming you don't believe there was a creator. Also wrong. Please learn biology before disputing the claim. 2 Link to comment
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