Time to get serious about science

[bennychico11]

When science can show me how life is formed from a sterile rock and prove to me where the first mass of matter came from that exploded and formed the Universe, then I can start to question an intelligent higher power being involved. Until then, in my mind, there has to be a higher power involved.

 

Funny. I say the same thing about people who claim it's a higher power.

[zoogs]

That would be scary if the U.S. was, say, 16 trillion dollars in debt. But we're ok.

 

Again, that graph is real misleading. It's a graph of US discretionary spending, which comes out to a very small percentage of the budget, and is comprised of primarily defense spending. All of this spending completely pales in comparison to medicare & socsec.

 

 

The fact is, none of us know the entire truth.

 

Yes. BRB, I think I find your position quite reasonable. I would add, science acknowledges this and leaves those blanks unfilled. However, it would be misguided to attempt to overwrite beyond those blanks.

[BigRedBuster]

Agree. And, at the same time, it is misguided for religious people to dismiss science.

[strigori]

BRB, it is actually refreshing to hear someone religious actually say that not every word in the Bible is to be taken as absolute truth.

[Junior]

When science can show me how life is formed from a sterile rock and prove to me where the first mass of matter came from that exploded and formed the Universe, then I can start to question an intelligent higher power being involved. Until then, in my mind, there has to be a higher power involved.

 

I believe that science simply is uncovering the physical evidence of how all of this happened.

 

I believe that this entire issue is railroaded by people who take the bible literally for every single word that is in it. Even though I believe god exists and Christ is his son and that entire story, many of the other stories in the bible are put there as lessons to be learned, not necessarily for their every specific detail being exactly how it happened.

 

Also, you can believe in God but not in organized religion as it is practiced by Humans. Organized religion is a matter of humans taking the bible and doing what THEY believe is the right thing to do. That doesn't necessarily mean it IS the right thing to do.

 

Every person has choices. If you choose to not believe in any higher power, then that's your choice. If you choose to believe and follow say the Catholic Church's version of Christianity, that is your choice. If you choose to believe but also choose to not follow a human version of Christianity then that is your choice. I am not going to sit here and judge you and hopefully you don't judge me for my faith. When I start getting testy is when ANYONE from any of these groups starts acting like a jackass and acting like they know everything.

There have been people from the beginning of time that have taken Christianity and bastardized it for their own benefit no matter if that is for business purposes or political power or keeping control over another person.

 

The fact is, none of us know the entire truth.

 

Now, those same principles are true in my mind with other religions also. For instance, Muslims have their own version of these problems (0bviously). There are people who take that religion and bastardize it for their own goals. They use it to justify terrorism and many other horrible things. That doesn't mean the basis of the religion is violent or bad. It doesn't meant that if you walk down the street and meet a Muslim that he instantly wants to kill you if you are a Christian. I have known many Muslims who simply want to live in peace just like the rest of us.

 

So, to answer your question, it varies for me. I really haven't found anything to where I am pulled one way or the other as far as science or my faith. I grew up Protestant but now practice the Catholic faith. BUT, that doesn't mean I support every single thing the Catholic faith believes or does. 99.9% of all of that was made up by man.

 

 

Not to be facetious, that's fine by me if you believe in a higher power who created the universe. I've just had this question that I've never heard answered by someone who believes in creation: By the same logic of "how life is formed from a sterile rock and prove to me where the first mass of matter came from that exploded and formed the Universe".... where did this deity come from? He just... existed? Forever? How did he come to "life", for lack of a better term?

[BigRedBuster]

When science can show me how life is formed from a sterile rock and prove to me where the first mass of matter came from that exploded and formed the Universe, then I can start to question an intelligent higher power being involved. Until then, in my mind, there has to be a higher power involved. I believe that science simply is uncovering the physical evidence of how all of this happened. I believe that this entire issue is railroaded by people who take the bible literally for every single word that is in it. Even though I believe god exists and Christ is his son and that entire story, many of the other stories in the bible are put there as lessons to be learned, not necessarily for their every specific detail being exactly how it happened. Also, you can believe in God but not in organized religion as it is practiced by Humans. Organized religion is a matter of humans taking the bible and doing what THEY believe is the right thing to do. That doesn't necessarily mean it IS the right thing to do. Every person has choices. If you choose to not believe in any higher power, then that's your choice. If you choose to believe and follow say the Catholic Church's version of Christianity, that is your choice. If you choose to believe but also choose to not follow a human version of Christianity then that is your choice. I am not going to sit here and judge you and hopefully you don't judge me for my faith. When I start getting testy is when ANYONE from any of these groups starts acting like a jackass and acting like they know everything. There have been people from the beginning of time that have taken Christianity and bastardized it for their own benefit no matter if that is for business purposes or political power or keeping control over another person. The fact is, none of us know the entire truth. Now, those same principles are true in my mind with other religions also. For instance, Muslims have their own version of these problems (0bviously). There are people who take that religion and bastardize it for their own goals. They use it to justify terrorism and many other horrible things. That doesn't mean the basis of the religion is violent or bad. It doesn't meant that if you walk down the street and meet a Muslim that he instantly wants to kill you if you are a Christian. I have known many Muslims who simply want to live in peace just like the rest of us. So, to answer your question, it varies for me. I really haven't found anything to where I am pulled one way or the other as far as science or my faith. I grew up Protestant but now practice the Catholic faith. BUT, that doesn't mean I support every single thing the Catholic faith believes or does. 99.9% of all of that was made up by man.

Not to be facetious, that's fine by me if you believe in a higher power who created the universe. I've just had this question that I've never heard answered by someone who believes in creation: By the same logic of "how life is formed from a sterile rock and prove to me where the first mass of matter came from that exploded and formed the Universe".... where did this deity come from? He just... existed? Forever? How did he come to "life", for lack of a better term?

 

Not being facetious at all. You pointed out my point. BOTH sides rely on a certain level of faith or believing in something that the human brain is completely unable to comprehend. I believe that this is because a higher power exists that can do things we can't imagine.

 

The problem with someone that is completely 100% science is that they have no answers for those questions that the human brain can not comprehend. Eventually, they have to explain where that piece of rock came from that supposedly exploded and caused the start of the chemical reaction that created life, and, what caused that explosion.

 

So....pardon me if I tend to believe a higher power must be involved in that process.

[Junior]

Not being facetious at all. You pointed out my point. BOTH sides rely on a certain level of faith or believing in something that the human brain is completely unable to comprehend. I believe that this is because a higher power exists that can do things we can't imagine.

 

The problem with someone that is completely 100% science is that they have no answers for those questions that the human brain can not comprehend. Eventually, they have to explain where that piece of rock came from that supposedly exploded and caused the start of the chemical reaction that created life, and, what caused that explosion.

 

So....pardon me if I tend to believe a higher power must be involved in that process.

 

My answer for how things started from the primordial ooze would be: chemistry and time.

 

How the rocks got there in the first place, no clue.

[bennychico11]

Not being facetious at all. You pointed out my point. BOTH sides rely on a certain level of faith or believing in something that the human brain is completely unable to comprehend. I believe that this is because a higher power exists that can do things we can't imagine.

 

I disagree with your definition of faith. As I'm sure the scientific community would have issue with your calling the origins of the universe something the human brain can't comprehend. Because if you're saying we are unable to comprehend it, then why say it's an intelligent form....or a god? More specifically, the Christian god. How are you able to comprehend that it is what you say it is?

The problem with someone that is completely 100% science is that they have no answers for those questions that the human brain can not comprehend. Eventually, they have to explain where that piece of rock came from that supposedly exploded and caused the start of the chemical reaction that created life, and, what caused that explosion.

 

 

There are many scientists who DO have hypotheses on those specific questions. Many of them are working to find evidence to support their hypothesis and many probably already can point to their evidence that they believe supports it. We don't know everything and may never. This universe has been around too long. It's like trying to solve a murder trillions of years in the past. There's a LOT of work that needs to be done. You can find a lot of information over at http://talkorigins.org/

 

So....pardon me if I tend to believe a higher power must be involved in that process.

 

And eventually you have to explain where your god came from. What is what Junior was asking originally.

The thing is I can see how someone would jump to the conclusion that it is a higher power. We're curious beings that need answers (and need them NOW, especially in this day of age). So a lot of people are not happy with "I don't know"...and decide to make up their own explanation. And a god seems to fit that bill. But it's an ever receding answer that's been used since the first questions about the world we live in. God explained EVERYTHING in our world. He caused the rain, the lightening, the famines, the floods, death, birth, etc. When science starting explaining things, god just got pushed back bit by bit.

The great thing about science is that it's fine with "I don't know." Because "I don't know " means the answer is still out there and we have a chance of finding it! But it still makes people comfortable to use god to explain what they cannot.

And not only a god, but you define a specific god.

We live in a natural world governed by natural laws. And even though scientists can't explain everything, we DO know we can't settle on supernatural magic being the explanation for everything. Especially since there has never been evidential support for magic ever. And saying "i don't know, therefore, god"...is not a way to answer these questions that we are all interested in.

[zoogs]

BOTH sides rely on a certain level of faith or believing in something that the human brain is completely unable to comprehend.

 

This just isn't the case.

 

The problem with someone that is completely 100% science is that they have no answers for those questions that the human brain can not comprehend. Eventually, they have to explain where that piece of rock came from that supposedly exploded and caused the start of the chemical reaction that created life, and, what caused that explosion.

 

Nope. It's completely fine that some things are not understood. We'll continue to gather information to build an understanding of the world around us. There are some things that are probably beyond our grasp, and maybe so forever. That's cool.

 

What we do with that is, we avoid making declarative statements about it.

[BigRedBuster]

Not being facetious at all. You pointed out my point. BOTH sides rely on a certain level of faith or believing in something that the human brain is completely unable to comprehend. I believe that this is because a higher power exists that can do things we can't imagine.

 

I disagree with your definition of faith. As I'm sure the scientific community would have issue with your calling the origins of the universe something the human brain can't comprehend. Because if you're saying we are unable to comprehend it, then why say it's an intelligent form....or a god? More specifically, the Christian god. How are you able to comprehend that it is what you say it is?

The problem with someone that is completely 100% science is that they have no answers for those questions that the human brain can not comprehend. Eventually, they have to explain where that piece of rock came from that supposedly exploded and caused the start of the chemical reaction that created life, and, what caused that explosion.

 

 

There are many scientists who DO have hypotheses on those specific questions. Many of them are working to find evidence to support their hypothesis and many probably already can point to their evidence that they believe supports it. We don't know everything and may never. This universe has been around too long. It's like trying to solve a murder trillions of years in the past. There's a LOT of work that needs to be done. You can find a lot of information over at http://talkorigins.org/

 

So....pardon me if I tend to believe a higher power must be involved in that process.

 

And eventually you have to explain where your god came from. What is what Junior was asking originally.

The thing is I can see how someone would jump to the conclusion that it is a higher power. We're curious beings that need answers (and need them NOW, especially in this day of age). So a lot of people are not happy with "I don't know"...and decide to make up their own explanation. And a god seems to fit that bill. But it's an ever receding answer that's been used since the first questions about the world we live in. God explained EVERYTHING in our world. He caused the rain, the lightening, the famines, the floods, death, birth, etc. When science starting explaining things, god just got pushed back bit by bit.

The great thing about science is that it's fine with "I don't know." Because "I don't know " means the answer is still out there and we have a chance of finding it! But it still makes people comfortable to use god to explain what they cannot.

And not only a god, but you define a specific god.

We live in a natural world governed by natural laws. And even though scientists can't explain everything, we DO know we can't settle on supernatural magic being the explanation for everything. Especially since there has never been evidential support for magic ever. And saying "i don't know, therefore, god"...is not a way to answer these questions that we are all interested in.

 

 

At some point in time in our history, there was nothing, then there was something. That takes faith. It might not be in a higher power. But, then it takes faith in believing something that the human mind can't comprehend.

 

Faith doesn't need to be tied to a religion if that is what are implying.

[sd'sker]

 

At some point in time in our history, there was nothing, then there was something. That takes faith. It might not be in a higher power. But, then it takes faith in believing something that the human mind can't comprehend.

 

Faith doesn't need to be tied to a religion if that is what are implying.

you do not know that.

[BigRedBuster]

So, what you are saying is that there is no beginning of time?

 

Wow...talk about faith.

[zoogs]

No, it doesn't. All it takes is "We don't quite understand the nature of this."

[strigori]

So, what you are saying is that there is no beginning of time?

 

Wow...talk about faith.

There is a rather profound difference between the faith people have in what a book written centuries ago telling an origin story, and scientists saying 'we have a theory on how things got started.' The theory will be adapted at any time new info becomes available The faith method refuses any new info.

[sd'sker]

So, what you are saying is that there is no beginning of time?

 

Wow...talk about faith.

not sure if you were responding to me. that is not what i was saying. i do not know how you got to that. also, what is time?