Time to get serious about science

[strigori]

I once had a science dream. Then I learned that academic scientists spend about 1% of their time actually doing science...at your typical university the rest is spent applying for grants (months-long processes often), teaching menial introductory classes to brainless kids who will probably drop out anyway, supervising grad students, undergrads, and post-docs, going to a constant flow of faculty and staff meetings, seminars, traveling around to go to more meetings and seminars, and then finally working towards an end goal not of a big discovery, but simply of getting published. Enormous pressure on your entire professional life not to discover something, but to get the most articles published in the most prestigious journals. It's all about getting published at any cost. Not to mention that I've heard so much about the shady practices employed by other scientists - fudging results, getting inside connections with people responsible for determining what articles get published in the major journals and other stupid political bullsh#t.

 

Given all of that, I don't find it surprising at all that science lags behind in this country.

 

What???

I find it interesting that people from other countries come to our universities to become educated in these things and we are behind? Our country has developed a very large number of the amazing technologies we have today and we are behind?

 

Also, silly me, I always thought professors at universities were there to teach kids out of HS, grad assistants and post doc students.

You are aware that a great number of these 'amazing technologies' were not US creations? South Korea and Japan crate a lot of these nifty items. Both, coincidentally focus massively on their education systems. Unlike the US, where that always seems to be the first place to make budget cuts.

 

The math and science knowledge in this country is flat out pathetic when compared to the rest of the 1st world. Businesses are pretty open about the need for a number of professions that we do not generate enough grads in. In large part because our primary and secondary education systems in this country are just about flat broken. Kids don't prepared for it right, or at all. Just browse around this forum, or the internet in general and see all the stupidity that people think is fact, that a grade school science book would prove wrong.

 

Compare it this way. If a kid coming out of high school is really out of shape, can't run fast, and knows very little about football, is he going to get scholarship offers? Not a chance, Its similar to any other field.

[zoogs]

Our primary and secondary education aren't the greatest, across the board. However, our institutions of higher learning are tops in the world.

 

And despite the relative "ease" of secondary education, we still produce some extremely outstanding students. I tend to think of it this way, the super bright kids who have lots of free time have the leisure to really indulge in some awesome learning experiences and activities outside of the classroom.

 

If you think that the US doesn't produce outstanding students in math and science, I'd have to say you are wrong.

[BigRedBuster]

I once had a science dream. Then I learned that academic scientists spend about 1% of their time actually doing science...at your typical university the rest is spent applying for grants (months-long processes often), teaching menial introductory classes to brainless kids who will probably drop out anyway, supervising grad students, undergrads, and post-docs, going to a constant flow of faculty and staff meetings, seminars, traveling around to go to more meetings and seminars, and then finally working towards an end goal not of a big discovery, but simply of getting published. Enormous pressure on your entire professional life not to discover something, but to get the most articles published in the most prestigious journals. It's all about getting published at any cost. Not to mention that I've heard so much about the shady practices employed by other scientists - fudging results, getting inside connections with people responsible for determining what articles get published in the major journals and other stupid political bullsh#t.

 

Given all of that, I don't find it surprising at all that science lags behind in this country.

 

What???

I find it interesting that people from other countries come to our universities to become educated in these things and we are behind? Our country has developed a very large number of the amazing technologies we have today and we are behind?

 

Also, silly me, I always thought professors at universities were there to teach kids out of HS, grad assistants and post doc students.

You are aware that a great number of these 'amazing technologies' were not US creations? South Korea and Japan crate a lot of these nifty items. Both, coincidentally focus massively on their education systems. Unlike the US, where that always seems to be the first place to make budget cuts.

 

The math and science knowledge in this country is flat out pathetic when compared to the rest of the 1st world. Businesses are pretty open about the need for a number of professions that we do not generate enough grads in. In large part because our primary and secondary education systems in this country are just about flat broken. Kids don't prepared for it right, or at all. Just browse around this forum, or the internet in general and see all the stupidity that people think is fact, that a grade school science book would prove wrong.

 

Compare it this way. If a kid coming out of high school is really out of shape, can't run fast, and knows very little about football, is he going to get scholarship offers? Not a chance, Its similar to any other field.

 

 

I'll tell you why I think that is.

 

In the US, we have a goal to educate all children. Now, this is going to sound cold hearted, but sometimes in this issue cold hard facts need to be looked at that way.

 

Heck, we even spend huge amounts of money keeping mentally challenged kids in class rooms where they have absolutely no chance of learning the subject.

 

Meanwhile, places like china only attempt to educate the top 10-15% of their population.

 

Now, let's imagine how our schools would be different if let's even take it to 50%. Let's say we are only going to have a goal of pushing the top 50% of our kids to advanced education say past 8th grade. Imagine the resources that can be pushed to them and how much more time the teachers could spend educating them and how much faster they could go through complicated subjects if they didn't have all the other kids who can't handle the subject OR (and this is a big one) are only there because they have to be there and cause problems.

 

Let's look at inner city schools with all the gang and crime problems. Imagine how those schools could be different if they could go in and cherry pick out of those cities the top 25-50% of the students that actually want to get an education.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

Also, you need to look at they type of education both counties push. China is very much a strict idea of the student must memorize XXXX down to the detail. Meanwhile, American education pushes more of critical thinking and problem solving.

 

I have read and heard many people in industry talk about how maybe someone out of China might know more about Chemistry but the American student is better at thinking through problems and critical thinking.

[knapplc]

I'll tell you why I think that is.

 

In the US, we have a goal to educate all children. Now, this is going to sound cold hearted, but sometimes in this issue cold hard facts need to be looked at that way.

 

Heck, we even spend huge amounts of money keeping mentally challenged kids in class rooms where they have absolutely no chance of learning the subject.

 

Meanwhile, places like china only attempt to educate the top 10-15% of their population.

 

Now, let's imagine how our schools would be different if let's even take it to 50%. Let's say we are only going to have a goal of pushing the top 50% of our kids to advanced education say past 8th grade. Imagine the resources that can be pushed to them and how much more time the teachers could spend educating them and how much faster they could go through complicated subjects if they didn't have all the other kids who can't handle the subject OR (and this is a big one) are only there because they have to be there and cause problems.

 

Let's look at inner city schools with all the gang and crime problems. Imagine how those schools could be different if they could go in and cherry pick out of those cities the top 25-50% of the students that actually want to get an education.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

Also, you need to look at they type of education both counties push. China is very much a strict idea of the student must memorize XXXX down to the detail. Meanwhile, American education pushes more of critical thinking and problem solving.

 

I have read and heard many people in industry talk about how maybe someone out of China might know more about Chemistry but the American student is better at thinking through problems and critical thinking.

 

There is no way you really believe this.

[sd'sker]

america is a democracy, it needs an educated electorate even though it is not in the politicians' best interests.

 

also, right now most of schooling is just disciplinarian. everyone should familiarize themselves with foucault.

[BigRedBuster]

I'll tell you why I think that is.

 

In the US, we have a goal to educate all children. Now, this is going to sound cold hearted, but sometimes in this issue cold hard facts need to be looked at that way.

 

Heck, we even spend huge amounts of money keeping mentally challenged kids in class rooms where they have absolutely no chance of learning the subject.

 

Meanwhile, places like china only attempt to educate the top 10-15% of their population.

 

Now, let's imagine how our schools would be different if let's even take it to 50%. Let's say we are only going to have a goal of pushing the top 50% of our kids to advanced education say past 8th grade. Imagine the resources that can be pushed to them and how much more time the teachers could spend educating them and how much faster they could go through complicated subjects if they didn't have all the other kids who can't handle the subject OR (and this is a big one) are only there because they have to be there and cause problems.

 

Let's look at inner city schools with all the gang and crime problems. Imagine how those schools could be different if they could go in and cherry pick out of those cities the top 25-50% of the students that actually want to get an education.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

Also, you need to look at they type of education both counties push. China is very much a strict idea of the student must memorize XXXX down to the detail. Meanwhile, American education pushes more of critical thinking and problem solving.

 

I have read and heard many people in industry talk about how maybe someone out of China might know more about Chemistry but the American student is better at thinking through problems and critical thinking.

 

There is no way you really believe this.

 

What part?

[808Husker in KCMO]

Tax Churches.

[zoogs]

China is very much a strict idea of the student must memorize XXXX down to the detail. Meanwhile, American education pushes more of critical thinking and problem solving.

 

I have read and heard many people in industry talk about how maybe someone out of China might know more about Chemistry but the American student is better at thinking through problems and critical thinking.

 

In my opinion BRB has made quite a few good points (although I have no idea if it is true that we care more about educating everyone than other countries. I know it's important in the US, enabling 'opportunity' or at least the show of it, to everyone. Whether other countries don't do this is the question.)

 

China in particular, doesn't emphasize critical thinking to the same extent. Still, our primary education is just weak, and that's no secret. 5th grade kids playing around with number blocks is not about critical thinking, it's about a shocking failure to teach multiplication. There's something to be said about rigorous standards, though, and the extent to which the US likes to coddle students who don't do as well.

 

I think our education issues are a cultural and societal one more than they are an issue with schools themselves. We have tremendous resources in htis country, and for most people, if your parents place a high value on education, their kids are going to become highly educated. The issue is with parents who for whatever reasons, fair or not, who don't place as much value. And another issue is widespread political infringement into the domain of science. Such as the sheer idiocy of those Texas school boards under pressure to teach ID as an alternative in schools.

 

All of that aside, the resources exist in this country for our best and brightest to excel, and to excel wildly. And they do. There's something to be said for that, too.

 

Relevant to this discussion: http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20120910/america-only-nation-where-climate-scientists-face-organized-harassment

[BigRedBuster]

A number of years ago I was having to compete with Chinese products and also thinking about buying from a Chinese manufacturer so I did some reading and research on what makes them different than us. I read several books on the issue of education and industry in China that dealt with the issue.

 

I tried Googling the issue right now and within a short time I came up with a couple web sites that hint at what I'm talking about.

 

This web site appears to be from the University of Michigan.

 

http://sitemaker.umi...of_both_systems

 

One negative aspect of the Chinese education system is that high stakes testing in order to pass into the next grade results in many students left with no other choice but to drop out of the school system all together.

 

Now, let's say the US would implement a system where to pass into each grade you had to pass a very strict test and that caused many to drop out of school that didn't give a crap and wanted to cause problems more than learn. You don't think the ones that are left would get a better education?

 

http://www.edu.cn/20...3/3123354.shtml

 

Secondary education is divided into academic secondary education and specialized/vocational/technical secondary education.

Academic secondary education is delivered by academic lower and upper middle schools.

 

Lower middle school graduates wishing to continue their education take a locally administered entrance exam, on the basis of which they will have the option either of continuing in an academic upper middle school or of entering a vocational secondary school.

 

In other words, in Middle School, if you want to continue your education, you take an exam. If you score high enough on that exam, then you are allowed to go on and study stuff like science and math at a higher level.

 

Now, back to my original post, imagine taking all those resources and time the teachers and educational system spend on trying to educate and babysit kids who have no desire to be there and learn and put those into educating the best students we have....the sky is the limit. Heck, even the teacher's attitude changes.

[BigRedBuster]

Also, imagine how much more pressure would be at home if parents knew that little Johny has to pass an exam to get into HS otherwise little Johny is going to be shoved off into a vocational school. I guarantee you little Johny is going to come to school better prepared.

[knapplc]

I'll tell you why I think that is.

 

In the US, we have a goal to educate all children. Now, this is going to sound cold hearted, but sometimes in this issue cold hard facts need to be looked at that way.

 

Heck, we even spend huge amounts of money keeping mentally challenged kids in class rooms where they have absolutely no chance of learning the subject.

 

Meanwhile, places like china only attempt to educate the top 10-15% of their population.

 

Now, let's imagine how our schools would be different if let's even take it to 50%. Let's say we are only going to have a goal of pushing the top 50% of our kids to advanced education say past 8th grade. Imagine the resources that can be pushed to them and how much more time the teachers could spend educating them and how much faster they could go through complicated subjects if they didn't have all the other kids who can't handle the subject OR (and this is a big one) are only there because they have to be there and cause problems.

 

Let's look at inner city schools with all the gang and crime problems. Imagine how those schools could be different if they could go in and cherry pick out of those cities the top 25-50% of the students that actually want to get an education.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

Also, you need to look at they type of education both counties push. China is very much a strict idea of the student must memorize XXXX down to the detail. Meanwhile, American education pushes more of critical thinking and problem solving.

 

I have read and heard many people in industry talk about how maybe someone out of China might know more about Chemistry but the American student is better at thinking through problems and critical thinking.

 

There is no way you really believe this.

 

What part?

 

Most notably the part where you're advocating social engineering as it pertains to education. Knowing your abhorrence for more government involvement, I cannot fathom how you can rationalize allowing the government even more control over the lives of U.S. citizens by giving them the power to decide who does or does not merit full education. And if you're going to argue that this wouldn't be accomplished by a democratic government, I'm tremendously curious to know who you would put in charge of this task? This is more an oligarchic than a democratic view of the citizenry, which doesn't surprise me having read many of your posts in this forum, but it does not jive with your stated beliefs.

 

Further, China as an example of how we should conduct our education efforts in America is confusing, considering that by world standards (not China's own standards, which are exceptionally low compared to the world as a whole), the vast majority of Chinese live in poverty. This is a direct result of their inequalities in education, as those in rural areas are far more likely to live in poverty and be uneducated than people in urban areas, but even allowing for educational inequality between rural and urban populations, (which exists in America as well) the decentralized nature of China's governmental social structure means there will be disparities in education (and poverty) levels not only between urban and rural areas, but from prefecture to prefecture.

[knapplc]

Now, let's say the US would implement a system where to pass into each grade you had to pass a very strict test and that caused many to drop out of school that didn't give a crap and wanted to cause problems more than learn. You don't think the ones that are left would get a better education?

 

And those who drop out, what of them? You think we have an overly large population living off the government dime now, what then? And if you advocate axing "entitlement" programs as you're so fond of calling them, implementing an education system like this while at the same time cutting welfare will leave you with a large population of uneducated, unemployed, disaffected, desperate and angry Americans. What do you think those people will do with their time? Happily live out their lives in poverty, content that they just didn't cut it?

 

If you're really into civil unrest, up to and including open revolt, this is one of the quickest ways to get there - unless, that is, you want to have a military more worried about keeping its own citizens from revolution rather than keeping the borders safe.

[BigRedBuster]

Whoa Whoa....Whoa.....

 

I am in no way shape or form advocating changing our educational system to Chinas. You obviously missed this in my post.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

I actually believe we have a very good educational system and was defending it. What I am saying is that when comparing China to here is comparing apples to bananas. There is a completely different philosophy around what they try to accomplish.

 

NOW...what I DO believe we could do a better job of is advancing those top level students in an environment where they can be pushed to their limits. This is especially true in inner city schools where these types of kids are dealing with gang violence and very negative environments at school. BUT, that has to be done in a manner that is fair. NOT like it is done in China.

[strigori]

Whoa Whoa....Whoa.....

 

I am in no way shape or form advocating changing our educational system to Chinas. You obviously missed this in my post.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

I actually believe we have a very good educational system and was defending it. What I am saying is that when comparing China to here is comparing apples to bananas. There is a completely different philosophy around what they try to accomplish.

 

NOW...what I DO believe we could do a better job of is advancing those top level students in an environment where they can be pushed to their limits. This is especially true in inner city schools where these types of kids are dealing with gang violence and very negative environments at school. BUT, that has to be done in a manner that is fair. NOT like it is done in China.

Our education system needs an overhaul, and no vouchers for private schools is not an answer. Hell, we could have a whole thread just on ways to revamp the education system, with what we think needs to change. The fact is we are pretty far down in literacy rates, math scores and science scores. Something like 1/3 of fourth graders can't read at 'grade level' which is just pathetic.

 

The fact is zoogies nailed a large part of it, and the animosity the right has for education, and intelligence itself, is a HUGE part of the problem.

 

I'm not even sure why you brought China into this discussion.

[knapplc]

Whoa Whoa....Whoa.....

 

I am in no way shape or form advocating changing our educational system to Chinas. You obviously missed this in my post.

 

Now, all that said, I am all for educating everyone. I think it is important to our country to educate everyone. BUT, I have a hard time stomaching trash talk about our educational system only to compare it to countries with totally different philosophies on who they are going to educate.

 

I actually believe we have a very good educational system and was defending it. What I am saying is that when comparing China to here is comparing apples to bananas. There is a completely different philosophy around what they try to accomplish.

 

NOW...what I DO believe we could do a better job of is advancing those top level students in an environment where they can be pushed to their limits. This is especially true in inner city schools where these types of kids are dealing with gang violence and very negative environments at school. BUT, that has to be done in a manner that is fair. NOT like it is done in China.

 

I didn't miss anything. Your whole post, minus one small caveat, was comparing our education system to something like China's.

 

 

 

Ignoring China and any comparisons, if that's not where you meant to go, I agree that we need to overhaul the system. I also agree with strigori that there's a political party out there for whom education is not a priority - in fact, it's the enemy. Attacking teachers through their unions is absurd to me, yet here we are, in 2012, and the Republicans are doing just that. And a lawmaker from the vanguard state in that attack on education is the shining sidekick of the Republican ticket.