Catholic Hospital says Fetus is not a person

[carlfense]

So, a church can practice it's beliefs as long as a law isn't written. And, it is perfectly fine if that law is written forcing the law maker's beliefs on a religion.

. . . the Church is exempt . . .

[BigRedBuster]

The argument was that the church was forcing it's beliefs on other people.

 

My example is an example of someone forcing their beliefs on other people. I guess as long as it's not a church doing it, then it's fine and really not a valid discussion to have.

[sd'sker]

So, a church can practice it's beliefs as long as a law isn't written. And, it is perfectly fine if that law is written forcing the law maker's beliefs on a religion.

you act as if all beliefs are protected religious beliefs. does the law force a single person to use contraception?

[BigRedBuster]

Does the law force that woman to work for an organization that doesn't pay for her contraception?

 

Would the law force a person that eats meat to work for my company that doesn't provide meat or believe in it?

[C N Red]

Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't as far as many people are concerned.

is that what it is called when you only choose what beliefs to abide by based on financial interests? the only common thread between the birth control issue and this lawsuit is that the church chose the cheaper value.

First off I don't always agree with what the "church" does as mentioned before. As I mentioned before when people are involved nothing is going to be all good and perfect. I live in a small town that has a church and tries its best to keep a school going. I think it's crazy that we have to send any of the money we get here to the diocese. They don't need the help. We are struggling to maintain the school. We could just drop it and have the church and be fine, but feel it good to have a school where we can teach about Christ since it seems illegal to believe in it anymore by what it sounds like to you. Because the church does things wrong we are all grouped together in it and are horrible people I guess. Some people are too jaded to open their minds a little and see religion in it's pure form isn't a bad thing.

 

Just b/c you don't believe in it doesn't make it wrong. You believe what you believe, and I will believe what I do, and maybe you can stop trying to push your agenda on other people. You are so against the church trying to force it's beliefs, but really you aren't any different by bashing it and trying to push on to people how bad it is. So when I see people saying the church is being hypocritical about something I have to laugh. They well might be being hypocritical, but the person pointing it out doesn't realize they are too. They are so against religion and say they don't like when they try to "push their beliefs" on others, but in saying that you are trying to push your beliefs onto others too. It's really all a hypocritical circle now isn't it?

[Junior]

But, when they don't try to abide by their beliefs, they get criticized for being hypocritical. Basically, non religious people are so fast with the trigger to find any little criticism of religious people and organizations that literally it is in a no win situation.

 

A church doesn't believe in birth control so it tries to abide by it's beliefs and gets criticized as "not living in the real world".

 

A church believes a baby is a human being but when one lawyer uses a defense that goes against that then they are criticized for hypocrisy.

 

It is always framed as...."they are trying to impose their beliefs on others". Really? That argument is so tired.

 

The fact is, non religious people are extremely sensitive towards anything like this.

 

The church wouldn't be criticized in this case at all if they said "You are right, we are liable for the loss of these two lives". They would probably be commended for taking a principled stand. That they are involved in a lawsuit where counsel on their behalf is trying to prevent liability by claiming a 7 month old fetus isn't alive... well, that really exposes them for what they are, a tax exempt, money making machine.

 

 

And, the church wouldn't be criticized if it would just go along with society and pay for things it doesn't believe in.

 

Let's look at this another way.

 

True story, I used to work with a woman that had such bad food allergies that all she could eat was literally meat and potatoes. Honestly, I didn't believe her until I worked with her enough that I grew to believe her.

 

Anyway, let's say I am an animal rights activist, Vegan and member of PETA and am completely against any eating of animals. Now, let's say I own a company that has a cafeteria that all employees can eat for free. NOW, let's say the woman who I mentioned above comes to work for me. Should I be forced to provide meat in my cafeteria even though it goes against my beliefs? Or, should I be able to provide a cafeteria that abides by my beliefs in no animal products?

 

Would I be criticized for "forcing my beliefs on others in the media the same way the church tries to stick to it's beliefs in certain situations? Personally, I don't think so.

 

So this is your argument as to why it is reasonable for the church to say that a 7 month old fetus isn't a life, so long as that is the stance that is financially beneficial to them? I guess I'm just confused as to why you are bringing this silly hypothetical situation into the discussion.

[C N Red]

the birth control mandate is a law that the church thinks it should be exempt for. it is a benefit guaranteed to women but the church believes that those women should do what they say, whether or not those women agree with those beliefs. that is forcing a belief on someone. not to mention, a lot of the entities are large hospitals barely affiliated with the church.

 

there is no law that a private business should have to provide a balanced cafeteria, let alone a cafeteria at all.

This is totally wrong. First off I think it's stupid the gov't should have the right to say an employer has to guarantee a women the right to contraception. The church isn't pushing their beliefs onto them by saying this, they are saying this is what we believe and won't pay for it. If you don't like it you can quit. It's that simple. When you sign on to work for them you know this going in. It's not pushing anything on anyone. It's the employers rules, understand when going into the job what it is, and decide if you want to work there or not.

[sd'sker]

Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't as far as many people are concerned.

is that what it is called when you only choose what beliefs to abide by based on financial interests? the only common thread between the birth control issue and this lawsuit is that the church chose the cheaper value.

First off I don't always agree with what the "church" does as mentioned before. As I mentioned before when people are involved nothing is going to be all good and perfect. I live in a small town that has a church and tries its best to keep a school going. I think it's crazy that we have to send any of the money we get here to the diocese. They don't need the help. We are struggling to maintain the school. We could just drop it and have the church and be fine, but feel it good to have a school where we can teach about Christ since it seems illegal to believe in it anymore by what it sounds like to you. Because the church does things wrong we are all grouped together in it and are horrible people I guess. Some people are too jaded to open their minds a little and see religion in it's pure form isn't a bad thing.

 

Just b/c you don't believe in it doesn't make it wrong. You believe what you believe, and I will believe what I do, and maybe you can stop trying to push your agenda on other people. You are so against the church trying to force it's beliefs, but really you aren't any different by bashing it and trying to push on to people how bad it is. So when I see people saying the church is being hypocritical about something I have to laugh. They well might be being hypocritical, but the person pointing it out doesn't realize they are too. They are so against religion and say they don't like when they try to "push their beliefs" on others, but in saying that you are trying to push your beliefs onto others too. It's really all a hypocritical circle now isn't it?

you have created one hell of a straw man. when have i ever stated a belief? i apologize for expecting the church to respect a 7 month old fetus as a human being. that sure is inflammatory and anti-church of me.

 

also, the church is much bigger than your school or diocese. when i talk about churches pushing their beliefs on us as a society i am talking about women's reproductive rights, gay rights, and euthanasia. things politicians do based on their faith and making people do things they do not want them to do because of their own held beliefs.

[BigRedBuster]

So, a church should have absolutely no say in society and how it runs it's own organizations. They should just be forced to go along with society no matter where the morals of that society goes.

 

If that is the case, then who is forcing their beliefs on whom?

[sd'sker]

So, a church should have absolutely no say in society and how it runs it's own organizations. They should just be forced to go along with society no matter where the morals of that society goes.

 

If that is the case, then who is forcing their beliefs on whom?

no one is being forced to take birth control. the church (not even the church itself) is being forced to provide a bare minimum of health care (including viagra, which they have no problem with). contraception offers a wide range of medical benefit beyond birth control. the church has every right to convince people not to take birth control, but it is doing a poor job of that.

[carlfense]

So, a church should have absolutely no say in society and how it runs it's own organizations. They should just be forced to go along with society no matter where the morals of that society goes.

What?

[BigRedBuster]

So, a church should have absolutely no say in society and how it runs it's own organizations. They should just be forced to go along with society no matter where the morals of that society goes.

 

If that is the case, then who is forcing their beliefs on whom?

no one is being forced to take birth control. the church (not even the church itself) is being forced to provide a bare minimum of health care (including viagra, which they have no problem with). contraception offers a wide range of medical benefit beyond birth control. the church has every right to convince people not to take birth control, but it is doing a poor job of that.

 

Thanks for the info but that really has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

Just because a church is doing a poor job of convincing it's members of it's beliefs, they shouldn't have the right to not pay for something that goes against those beliefs?

[sd'sker]

Thanks for the info but that really has nothing to do with the discussion.

i think it is rather telling. maybe the church should adjust its priorities.

Just because a church is doing a poor job of convincing it's members of it's beliefs, they shouldn't have the right to not pay for something that goes against those beliefs?

yeah. pretty much. why should churches get preferential treatment (other than all the tax breaks and everything)? what if they found a minimum wage morally reprehensible? would they have to abide by that?

 

and where the church can control religious beliefs (convincing its member that birth control is wrong) it has woefully failed.

 

frankly, i am not sure how birth control has anything to do with a discussion about the catholic church claiming two 7 month unborn babies do not deserve the same status as human beings.

[carlfense]

Thanks for the info but that really has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

Just because a church is doing a poor job of convincing it's members of it's beliefs, they shouldn't have the right to not pay for something that goes against those beliefs?

A better question:

 

Who is the Catholic Church? If 82% of Catholics believe something and the Pope believes another . . . what does the Catholic Church believe?

[BigRedBuster]

So, a church should have absolutely no say in society and how it runs it's own organizations. They should just be forced to go along with society no matter where the morals of that society goes.

What?

 

The argument was that the church is "forcing it's beliefs on others" by speaking up against things like abortion and contraception...etc. and trying to run it's own organizations by it's own views on morality and that was viewed as a bad thing. So, my question was, should the church be forced go just go along with society even though they don't believe in the direction of the morals of that society?