So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[carlfense]

Religion, in certain cases and places, takes on more of the role of a government than an institution. For me, it is about a relationship. People get caught up in the traditions of man instead of following the commands of Christ. For example to "belong to this church you need to do A, B and C." IMO, people get caught up in following the church and its edicts instead of Christ and his.

I agree. Particularly with the last line.

[bennychico11]

Edit-

If we need to continue this discussion, it should probably be moved to the shed. Sorry, but if somebody is going to pop in out of left field and groundlessly accuse me of being a bad parent or claim I should not even have children, it could get interesting.

 

To start off, I'm sorry if you felt it was a personal attack on you. That was never my intention. I was not calling you personally a bad parent and I apologize if I made you think that. It was just a response to you using the parent analogy to explain god's actions and why I think that would be a terrible example of a parent.

I had a whole response typed out to your other points...but I think I'll just end it here so things don't escalate further.

[JJ Husker]

Edit-

If we need to continue this discussion, it should probably be moved to the shed. Sorry, but if somebody is going to pop in out of left field and groundlessly accuse me of being a bad parent or claim I should not even have children, it could get interesting.

 

To start off, I'm sorry if you felt it was a personal attack on you. That was never my intention. I was not calling you personally a bad parent and I apologize if I made you think that. It was just a response to you using the parent analogy to explain god's actions and why I think that would be a terrible example of a parent.

I had a whole response typed out to your other points...but I think I'll just end it here so things don't escalate further.

Sorry, I may have over reacted. Re-reading it with your clarification in mind made it seem much less offensive and more like a hypothetical analogy than the way I took it originally. Also, I was having a bit of a bad night last night when I read this so I don't doubt that I wasn't in a foul mood to begin with. Please respond to the other points if you wish.

[strigori]

There is a massive difference between religions and other groups of people.

People who are part of a religion have beliefs that are so tightly wound into the fabric of their own being, that they are unwilling or unable to change a viewpoint. And more often than not, especially where Christianity has been involved, when another group challenges a viewpoint, it leads to horrific violence in the name of 'righteous justice/fury' or something similar. I can't think of other issues where people become so tightly attached to an idea that it could never be open to discussion.

[strigori]

Its not a support system. Its more of an intimidation system. Most of what religions designate as 'sin' are not things societies have ever designated as crimes. Just catch all's designed to make everyone a 'sinner' and in need of 'saving' from themselves. Things that 'heathens' don't view as wrong. The whole sales pitch of Christianity in particular, and religion in general, is the 'only' means to prevent eternal suffering. They then proceed to call this a message of 'hope and love' When people have the relationship with other people like the one Christians say humans have with God, People get restraining orders. I don't think people would adhere to many things promoted by religion if not for the fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and the primary one Christians pitch.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this. What kind of f'd up churches have you people been exposed to? I've never felt intimidated by my church or my religion. Catholics are well known for laying on the guilt hut it is nothing close to intimidation and in all honesty I don't feel they go overboard at all. The one issue I can think of off the top of my head is their opposition to birth control. I disagree with their stance on it, basically ignore it, and am not concerned if they deem it a sin or not. I've never heard it mentioned in church and I don't even know if they consider it a sin for sure. Tell me what widely accepted societal behavior these churches are calling a sin that precipitated your statements. I'm really curious if there is some goofball stuff you've been exposed to or if you have some shaky moral beliefs.

The whole thing is predicated on you are either going to beg forgiveness, or burn in hell. Do this or be punished for all time is an intimidation line if I have ever heard one.

 

Original Sin. The act of being conceived though sex is an automatic condemnation. The only way to keep the species going condemns one to hell, its a nice catch all. Other points are what can only be called 'thought crimes' The bible does say that even thinking something is as bad as doing it. Which is complete BS.

 

- Landlord, as to sin, thoughts are listed as sins. When religions control or become a government they make most all of the sins into crimes.

 

The Bible, and Jesus himself spend a ton of time talking about greed and 'the love of money being the root of all evil' Yet you would be pretty hard pressed to find many that would actually condemn greed, that one seems to be OK. The rich get an awful lot of praise from the faithful, though Jesus said "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than rich man to enter the gates of heaven." Not exactly the company line anymore is it?

 

You prove my point actually. You said fear was a motivator in the beginning. You have since rationalized things to make it comfortable to live with. A message of hope and love delivered through fear makes no sense.

[carlfense]

There is a massive difference between religions and other groups of people.

People who are part of a religion have beliefs that are so tightly wound into the fabric of their own being, that they are unwilling or unable to change a viewpoint. And more often than not, especially where Christianity has been involved, when another group challenges a viewpoint, it leads to horrific violence in the name of 'righteous justice/fury' or something similar. I can't think of other issues where people become so tightly attached to an idea that it could never be open to discussion.

I think similar behavior can be observed outside of religion . . . Penn State fans and the cult of Paterno worshippers are the most obvious example that I can come up with. They're still convinced that the school/coaches did nothing wrong and that everyone is out to get them.

[JJ Husker]

strig- I guess there has been a huge difference in our exposures to Christianity. I've never perceived it the way you describe it. "Beg" forgiveness? I've never begged for it. It is promised and freely available. Why would someone "beg" for it? "Or burn in hell"? Once again the message has not been presented in that manner to me. Sure the thought is in there somewhere but if that was the regular weekly message at my church, I would definitely find somewhere else to go (probably not as far away as some of you). That is not the nature of the message in the New Testament. It is more a message of love, forgiveness, and helping the less fortunate. Hardly bad things.

 

Your interpretation of original sin is also interesting. I've never given the concept much thought other than to accept that we are by nature sinful beings. I'm pretty sure I've never been condemned to hell, even at birth before I was baptized. On top of that, I'm not even sure I believe in that type of hell. My idea is more simply being separated from God. Surely not a desirable thing but quite different than being born into a burning pit of fire. We'll have to agree to disagree on sins by thought. I do believe the nature of the thought matters and I'm not necessarily quoting the company line here but I don't worry about lustful thoughts that I never have any intention of acting on. But I do think hateful thoughts are sinful. You can call it BS but some thoughts are sinful by my reasoning. It would seem you were exposed to some very aggressive and negative ways of conveying what should be a much more accepting and welcoming message of good news. That's really quite a shame but goes to the point I have repeatedly been trying to make. Human beings are the problem. Surely you didn't get these ideas by just reading the Bible. If you did, you need to hone those comprehension skills.

[walksalone]

Hitler, killed the Jews because of their religion.

 

If you don't think religion is a large basis for many of the wars that have happened in the past thousand years, you're pretty naive.

 

As for atheists blaming the woe's of the world on religion, they don't need to because religion does a pretty good job of f*cking things up without any atheists needing to cast any blame...

 

WOW you are trying really, really hard to blame religion for things.

 

Hitler, eh? I suppose if you don't know much about history, you'd think the Holocaust was just "Hitler killing the Jews." Unfortunately, Hitler also killed non-combat citizens such as Poles, Romanians, Russians, French, Dutch, Norwegians, & English, plus gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, political opposition, diplomats and labor leaders in the various countries they conquered. In total he killed about an equal number of non-Jews and Jews. Hitler's motivations for the war was not "to kill the Jews." It was to create a new world order along the lines of the Roman Empire. It had nothing to do with spreading a religion.

 

The first straw man in your argument is my alleged naivete regarding the "...large basis for many of the wars..." Not only did I not say that, I didn't imply it or in any way infer it. I have no idea where this is coming from.

 

The second straw man you fail to see in your post is this: "As for atheists blaming the woe's of the world on religion..." Nobody said "the woes of the world" were to be laid at the feet of Religion. In fact, I said the opposite - they're to be laid at the feet of man. Again, religion is a man-made concept. Without religion, man and all his motivations exist intact. You're trying so hard to blame things on religion that you're getting carried away. And "religion" isn't the problem anyway. Man is.

 

You're merely proving my point, that religion makes people bat sh#t crazy and their brains fall out of their ass, over something thats imaginary..

Edited March 1, 2013 by walksalone

[JJ Husker]

There is a massive difference between religions and other groups of people.

People who are part of a religion have beliefs that are so tightly wound into the fabric of their own being, that they are unwilling or unable to change a viewpoint. And more often than not, especially where Christianity has been involved, when another group challenges a viewpoint, it leads to horrific violence in the name of 'righteous justice/fury' or something similar. I can't think of other issues where people become so tightly attached to an idea that it could never be open to discussion.

Unfortunately, I basically agree with this post. Thereis a rather large element of Christians that believe and cling to some strange ideas. Funny thing is, I tend to refer to them as Bible beaters but it is usually a message that I don't feel they should be getting from the Bible. It seems to rear it's head most when people take things too literally. I could be doing it wrong I guess but it doesn't feel wrong so I tend to be happy with the way I'm doing it. Maybe I just rationalize until I can accept it. Whatever the case, it seems to be working for me.