husker_99 Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 capable of good and evil? Link to comment
TonyStalloni Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Do you mean evil as in Him wanting to see us in pain and hurting while He watches us like a kid torturing flies? Or do you mean Him standing by while we make decisions that will negatively affect us? Link to comment
husker_99 Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Do you mean evil as in Him wanting to see us in pain and hurting while He watches us like a kid torturing flies? Or do you mean Him standing by while we make decisions that will negatively affect us? A lot of people think God is all loving and he can do no wrong but throughout the entire old testament whenever Israel turned away he would bring disaster and ruin to Israel. He even let other nations invade Israel to take over the nation to show them not to turn away. Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what. But then that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him. That he does it because he loves you no matter what. Link to comment
Landlord Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 A lot of people think God is all loving and he can do no wrong but throughout the entire old testament whenever Israel turned away he would bring disaster and ruin to Israel. He even let other nations invade Israel to take over the nation to show them not to turn away. At first glance, these accounts in the OT aretroubling. But, there is a purpose to them, and they do showcase God's glory. Let me try and break this down position by position to arrive at the point that shows that God doing these things does not contradict His goodness. 1. People are sinful. 2. The just, righteous punishment of sin is separation from God. Eternally speaking, in hell. 3. Life is a gift. It is not a right. So, being alive is a measure of common grace poured out by God (grace meaning unearned favor). 4. Because we are sinful, God is not obligated to save anyone. 5. Because life is a gift of grace, and grace is by definition undeserved or unearned, God has just cause in ending life. Really the whole conclusion depends on your view of humans. If you think of us as generally worthy of something, then that naturally leads to an idea of God being evil in taking that away. However, if you think of us as generally depraved and in desperate NEED of something, it changes things. To analogize, let's say a kid has an Xbox360 that he plays every day. If you believe that kid is good, respectful and obedient, and his parents take it away, you'll naturally think "that's not okay of the parents to do". However, if you see that kid as being a terror, disobedient and rebellious against his parents' authority, you will think "yes, the parents have every right to take that away." Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 A lot of people think God is all loving and he can do no wrong but throughout the entire old testament whenever Israel turned away he would bring disaster and ruin to Israel. He even let other nations invade Israel to take over the nation to show them not to turn away. Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what. But then that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him. That he does it because he loves you no matter what. It would appear you are ignoring the event that really separates the old testament God from the new testament God. While it is accurate to say that God held people a lot more responsible for their decisions and actions before he made the new covenant, I'm not real sure calling those things evil is quite accurate. But the whole deal between God and his people changed significantly when he sent his son to redeem us. No longer did he need to hold his people directly accountable for their sins. You can believe that or not but please don't butcher, twist, and distort the message and his actions. Link to comment
husker_99 Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share Posted February 18, 2013 A lot of people think God is all loving and he can do no wrong but throughout the entire old testament whenever Israel turned away he would bring disaster and ruin to Israel. He even let other nations invade Israel to take over the nation to show them not to turn away. Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what. But then that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him. That he does it because he loves you no matter what. It would appear you are ignoring the event that really separates the old testament God from the new testament God. While it is accurate to say that God held people a lot more responsible for their decisions and actions before he made the new covenant, I'm not real sure calling those things evil is quite accurate. But the whole deal between God and his people changed significantly when he sent his son to redeem us. No longer did he need to hold his people directly accountable for their sins. You can believe that or not but please don't butcher, twist, and distort the message and his actions. I'm not twisting anything. But pretty much most of Jesus teachings aren't really Jewish in nature. In fact they mostly line up with the essenes(which were considered heretical) than current thought of God in society at the time. Evil may be a bad word but to say that God can't and hasn't caused it is far from true. Remember God told Adam if he ate from the tree of life he would die but he didn't. Now you can say he was talking about in the long run but Adam didn't know that he would exactly live forever either. Usually when someone makes a threat it isn't for long term but short. Then God allowed Satan to ruin Job just to prove to Satan he would not turn away from God. Link to comment
HuskerThor Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Do you mean evil as in Him wanting to see us in pain and hurting while He watches us like a kid torturing flies? Or do you mean Him standing by while we make decisions that will negatively affect us? As in Him standing there and watching someone in your family get killed by a drunk driver. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 husker_99- I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. By my accounting, there is a significant difference between allowing free will and evil to occur in the world and causing or committing evil actions. I sure don't have all, or even many, of the answers for why God allows bad things to happen to good people but I do believe it is inaccurate and false to jump to the conclusion that God causes these bad things to happen (commits evil) simply because he does not prohibit evil even though he could. I guess there are just some things we weren't meant to fully understand. I can understand how some people can think he may not be a loving God but I also think I understand just enough to realize those people have got it all figured wrong. Link to comment
strigori Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Does anyone stop to think that the fact that there is a 'new' and 'old' covenant disproves 'God'? It implies that the infallible being that created all, changed his mind, meaning he realized he was wrong..... And the infallible being wrong is kinda like dividing by 0. 2 Link to comment
husker_99 Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 husker_99- I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. By my accounting, there is a significant difference between allowing free will and evil to occur in the world and causing or committing evil actions. I sure don't have all, or even many, of the answers for why God allows bad things to happen to good people but I do believe it is inaccurate and false to jump to the conclusion that God causes these bad things to happen (commits evil) simply because he does not prohibit evil even though he could. I guess there are just some things we weren't meant to fully understand. I can understand how some people can think he may not be a loving God but I also think I understand just enough to realize those people have got it all figured wrong. there must be a balance of good and evil for one can't exist without the other. Link to comment
husker_99 Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Does anyone stop to think that the fact that there is a 'new' and 'old' covenant disproves 'God'? It implies that the infallible being that created all, changed his mind, meaning he realized he was wrong..... And the infallible being wrong is kinda like dividing by 0. I think Christians have try to make God more personable than he is and try to stylize God. Judiasm in the old testament is pretty simple and not overtly complicated and the true meanings are obvious. Link to comment
walksalone Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 It's not whether God (aka the Easter Bunny, Santa, D.B. Cooper, Sid Finch, or whatever you want to call him) is capable of good or evil... All human being are capable of good or evil, it's just how you deal with the situations that are presented to you. For the most part people are going to do the right thing. There is the occasional time where somebody is going to do the wrong thing with bad or hurtful results. Placing this on whether a fictional deity will forgive you for doing something wrong, is pretty silly. 2 Link to comment
HuskerShark Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 It's not whether God (aka the Easter Bunny, Santa, D.B. Cooper, Sid Finch, or whatever you want to call him) is capable of good or evil... All human being are capable of good or evil, it's just how you deal with the situations that are presented to you. For the most part people are going to do the right thing. There is the occasional time where somebody is going to do the wrong thing with bad or hurtful results. Placing this on whether a fictional deity will forgive you for doing something wrong, is pretty silly. So if you have this view, and there is virtually no possible way for your view on this matter to change, then why come to this area of the board? Just curious I guess... Link to comment
walksalone Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 It's not whether God (aka the Easter Bunny, Santa, D.B. Cooper, Sid Finch, or whatever you want to call him) is capable of good or evil... All human being are capable of good or evil, it's just how you deal with the situations that are presented to you. For the most part people are going to do the right thing. There is the occasional time where somebody is going to do the wrong thing with bad or hurtful results. Placing this on whether a fictional deity will forgive you for doing something wrong, is pretty silly. So if you have this view, and there is virtually no possible way for your view on this matter to change, then why come to this area of the board? Just curious I guess... Only putting in my 2 cents, that's all... But also I think it poses an important question, as to what people will rely on to make themselves feel better, if they've done something wrong Link to comment
NUance Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 It's not whether God (aka the Easter Bunny, Santa, D.B. Cooper, Sid Finch, or whatever you want to call him) is capable of good or evil... All human being are capable of good or evil, it's just how you deal with the situations that are presented to you. For the most part people are going to do the right thing. There is the occasional time where somebody is going to do the wrong thing with bad or hurtful results. Placing this on whether a fictional deity will forgive you for doing something wrong, is pretty silly. So if you have this view, and there is virtually no possible way for your view on this matter to change, then why come to this area of the board? Just curious I guess... Only putting in my 2 cents, that's all... But also I think it poses an important question, as to what people will rely on to make themselves feel better, if they've done something wrong What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t. Link to comment
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