So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[walksalone]

Sorry, some of that about pot smoking hippie and the Reagan devil went over my head but what's up with the no discernable author thing? Because it is a collection of various books from different writers and timespans? The whole inspired word of God thing? Or what? Are you claiming that the authors of the letters to the Ephesians, letters to the Phillipians, the books of the gospel, have no discernable authors?

 

You have empirical evidence that these "individuals" wrote the stuff in the bible? Even if they did write all this, how are you sure it hasn't been rewritten or completely fabricated because somebody along the way didn't like the way the story read?

 

Ok. Now I understand what you were getting at. The angle that drunken monks may have mistranslated or purposely changed things. I didn't pop in to defend it, only wanted to understand your point.

 

The Guttenburg Monks had nothing to do with this, because they only had time to rewrite a couple dozen of them.

 

And also, not what I'm getting at. The bible is just a book, a story, but the fact that if you commit some horrible crime, as long as you take what that book says and believe in god, you're absolved of all wrong doing. Not only is it stupid, it's bullsh#t. And all this based on a bunch of guys who might have been gigantic douchebags...

[JJ Husker]

It's not quite that simple Walks. Yes we believe we can have our sins forgiven but really only if we are truly, heartily sorry for having committed them. That is vastly different than doing bad things, shrugging your shoulders, and saying Jesus died for me so I'm cool. Is it possible all these guys weren't gigantic douchebags? Is it possible that maybe subsequent humans were the dbags? Possibly the Biblical accounts are good and true and way too many humans have misused the actual intended message for the wrong reasons. I mean that is common with so many things, why should the Bible be any different. A person with a gun can do good things or they can do bad things. Is the gun the problem? Or is it the person?

[walksalone]

See, if you're truly sorry for doing something, that's called responsibility, and having spirituality. You don't need a book or a religious figurehead to do that, you just need yourself...

[HuskerThor]

Something I ran across that applies directly to this discussion:

 

(Scene: a college lecture hall)

Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?

 

Student : Yes, sir.

 

Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?

 

Student : Absolutely, sir.

 

Professor : Is GOD good ?

 

Student : Sure.

 

Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?

 

Student : Yes.

 

Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

 

(Student was silent.)

 

Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?

 

Student : Yes.

 

Professor: Is satan good ?

 

Student : No.

 

Professor: Where does satan come from ?

 

Student : From … GOD …

 

Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

 

Student : Yes.

 

Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

 

Student : Yes.

 

Professor: So who created evil ?

 

(Student did not answer.)

 

Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

 

Student : Yes, sir.

 

Professor: So, who created them ?

 

(Student had no answer.)

 

Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?

 

Student : No, sir.

 

Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?

 

Student : No , sir.

 

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

 

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

 

Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?

 

Student : Yes.

 

Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

 

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

 

Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.

 

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

 

Professor: Yes.

 

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

 

Professor: Yes.

 

Student : No, sir. There isn’t.

 

(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)

 

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

 

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

 

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

 

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

 

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

 

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

 

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

 

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

 

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

 

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

 

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

 

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

 

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

 

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

 

(The class was in uproar.)

 

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

 

(The class broke out into laughter. )

 

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

 

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

 

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

 

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

 

Why do people believe this tripe and pass it along as truth? How gullible are you?

 

http://www.snopes.co...on/einstein.asp

Well, he's a believer isn't he? That should explain your question.

[JJ Husker]

See, if you're truly sorry for doing something, that's called responsibility, and having spirituality. You don't need a book or a religious figurehead to do that, you just need yourself...

 

I suppose you don't need those things but if the book helps you learn about it and the figurehead helps lead you towards it, what's the harm in having those things also? I think for most people, they aren't going to expend much effort or thought at developing a meaningful spiritual life without having some sort of guideline. Surely even the the Lakota had a way of passing on the spiritual traditions. We just happen to have a book, multiple books actually, clergy, churches, and traditions. Those things, in and of themselves, are not bad things. Just like everything else in this world, people can make them good things or they can be bad. And as far as responsibility goes, how's that really working out in our society? There's a reason we have laws, books, courts, police, and all these lawyers. You don't really think most people are going to adhere to personal spiritual responsibility without any support system do you?

[strigori]

See, if you're truly sorry for doing something, that's called responsibility, and having spirituality. You don't need a book or a religious figurehead to do that, you just need yourself...

 

I suppose you don't need those things but if the book helps you learn about it and the figurehead helps lead you towards it, what's the harm in having those things also? I think for most people, they aren't going to expend much effort or thought at developing a meaningful spiritual life without having some sort of guideline. Surely even the the Lakota had a way of passing on the spiritual traditions. We just happen to have a book, multiple books actually, clergy, churches, and traditions. Those things, in and of themselves, are not bad things. Just like everything else in this world, people can make them good things or they can be bad. And as far as responsibility goes, how's that really working out in our society? There's a reason we have laws, books, courts, police, and all these lawyers. You don't really think most people are going to adhere to personal spiritual responsibility without any support system do you?

Its not a support system. Its more of an intimidation system. Most of what religions designate as 'sin' are not things societies have ever designated as crimes. Just catch all's designed to make everyone a 'sinner' and in need of 'saving' from themselves. Things that 'heathens' don't view as wrong. The whole sales pitch of Christianity in particular, and religion in general, is the 'only' means to prevent eternal suffering. They then proceed to call this a message of 'hope and love' When people have the relationship with other people like the one Christians say humans have with God, People get restraining orders. I don't think people would adhere to many things promoted by religion if not for the fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and the primary one Christians pitch.

[Landlord]

See, if you're truly sorry for doing something, that's called responsibility, and having spirituality. You don't need a book or a religious figurehead to do that, you just need yourself...

 

I suppose you don't need those things but if the book helps you learn about it and the figurehead helps lead you towards it, what's the harm in having those things also? I think for most people, they aren't going to expend much effort or thought at developing a meaningful spiritual life without having some sort of guideline. Surely even the the Lakota had a way of passing on the spiritual traditions. We just happen to have a book, multiple books actually, clergy, churches, and traditions. Those things, in and of themselves, are not bad things. Just like everything else in this world, people can make them good things or they can be bad. And as far as responsibility goes, how's that really working out in our society? There's a reason we have laws, books, courts, police, and all these lawyers. You don't really think most people are going to adhere to personal spiritual responsibility without any support system do you?

Its not a support system. Its more of an intimidation system. Most of what religions designate as 'sin' are not things societies have ever designated as crimes. Just catch all's designed to make everyone a 'sinner' and in need of 'saving' from themselves. Things that 'heathens' don't view as wrong. The whole sales pitch of Christianity in particular, and religion in general, is the 'only' means to prevent eternal suffering. They then proceed to call this a message of 'hope and love' When people have the relationship with other people like the one Christians say humans have with God, People get restraining orders. I don't think people would adhere to many things promoted by religion if not for the fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and the primary one Christians pitch.

 

 

What society designates as crime in a legal sense and what is overwhelmingly agreed upon as being morally impure or "bad" or "evil" or at the very least, lacking in purity, are two vastly different things. Unless you think people deserve to be praised and respected for cheating on their wives, manipulating and scamming others out of money, being a racist or otherwise prejudice, murdering babies and not tipping their waitresses, as a few examples.

 

Christianity is a message of hope. The gospel is 'good news', quite literally. But you don't need and don't understand and don't appreciate good news unless you can perceive the bad state of things.

 

As a Christian, fear was a part of my initial conversion process (which, by the way, is selfish and me-focused, and not at all respectable or desirable by God, but He accepts it nonetheless), but fear has nothing to do with my obedience and love towards Jesus now.

[JJ Husker]

Its not a support system. Its more of an intimidation system. Most of what religions designate as 'sin' are not things societies have ever designated as crimes. Just catch all's designed to make everyone a 'sinner' and in need of 'saving' from themselves. Things that 'heathens' don't view as wrong. The whole sales pitch of Christianity in particular, and religion in general, is the 'only' means to prevent eternal suffering. They then proceed to call this a message of 'hope and love' When people have the relationship with other people like the one Christians say humans have with God, People get restraining orders. I don't think people would adhere to many things promoted by religion if not for the fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and the primary one Christians pitch.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this. What kind of f'd up churches have you people been exposed to? I've never felt intimidated by my church or my religion. Catholics are well known for laying on the guilt hut it is nothing close to intimidation and in all honesty I don't feel they go overboard at all. The one issue I can think of off the top of my head is their opposition to birth control. I disagree with their stance on it, basically ignore it, and am not concerned if they deem it a sin or not. I've never heard it mentioned in church and I don't even know if they consider it a sin for sure. Tell me what widely accepted societal behavior these churches are calling a sin that precipitated your statements. I'm really curious if there is some goofball stuff you've been exposed to or if you have some shaky moral beliefs.

[husker_99]

The first flaw in Christianity is that too much myth that is not in the bible is taken literally e.g. the Lucifer archangel myth. The 2nd part is that to really understand the bible you have to learn other religions in the area. e.g. the serpent in the garden isn't Satan.

[walksalone]

See, if you're truly sorry for doing something, that's called responsibility, and having spirituality. You don't need a book or a religious figurehead to do that, you just need yourself...

 

I suppose you don't need those things but if the book helps you learn about it and the figurehead helps lead you towards it, what's the harm in having those things also? I think for most people, they aren't going to expend much effort or thought at developing a meaningful spiritual life without having some sort of guideline. Surely even the the Lakota had a way of passing on the spiritual traditions. We just happen to have a book, multiple books actually, clergy, churches, and traditions. Those things, in and of themselves, are not bad things. Just like everything else in this world, people can make them good things or they can be bad. And as far as responsibility goes, how's that really working out in our society? There's a reason we have laws, books, courts, police, and all these lawyers. You don't really think most people are going to adhere to personal spiritual responsibility without any support system do you?

Its not a support system. Its more of an intimidation system. Most of what religions designate as 'sin' are not things societies have ever designated as crimes. Just catch all's designed to make everyone a 'sinner' and in need of 'saving' from themselves. Things that 'heathens' don't view as wrong. The whole sales pitch of Christianity in particular, and religion in general, is the 'only' means to prevent eternal suffering. They then proceed to call this a message of 'hope and love' When people have the relationship with other people like the one Christians say humans have with God, People get restraining orders. I don't think people would adhere to many things promoted by religion if not for the fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and the primary one Christians pitch.

 

 

What society designates as crime in a legal sense and what is overwhelmingly agreed upon as being morally impure or "bad" or "evil" or at the very least, lacking in purity, are two vastly different things. Unless you think people deserve to be praised and respected for cheating on their wives, manipulating and scamming others out of money, being a racist or otherwise prejudice, murdering babies and not tipping their waitresses, as a few examples.

 

Christianity is a message of hope. The gospel is 'good news', quite literally. But you don't need and don't understand and don't appreciate good news unless you can perceive the bad state of things.

 

As a Christian, fear was a part of my initial conversion process (which, by the way, is selfish and me-focused, and not at all respectable or desirable by God, but He accepts it nonetheless), but fear has nothing to do with my obedience and love towards Jesus now.

 

Not for nothing, but guys triumphing christianity beat my Grandfather for speaking Lakota, got my Dad slapped for reading a book...

 

Organized religion, christianity especially, is dangerous. It makes people do some crazy sh*t in the name of someone who they've never met, nor will ever meet. If you have faith in something, and that helps you get through the day, thats fine. But when that starts influencing how you feel about things and allowing it to change your mind regarding issues that it shouldn't have any bearing on, then, there's a problem.

[Landlord]

See, if you're truly sorry for doing something, that's called responsibility, and having spirituality. You don't need a book or a religious figurehead to do that, you just need yourself...

 

I suppose you don't need those things but if the book helps you learn about it and the figurehead helps lead you towards it, what's the harm in having those things also? I think for most people, they aren't going to expend much effort or thought at developing a meaningful spiritual life without having some sort of guideline. Surely even the the Lakota had a way of passing on the spiritual traditions. We just happen to have a book, multiple books actually, clergy, churches, and traditions. Those things, in and of themselves, are not bad things. Just like everything else in this world, people can make them good things or they can be bad. And as far as responsibility goes, how's that really working out in our society? There's a reason we have laws, books, courts, police, and all these lawyers. You don't really think most people are going to adhere to personal spiritual responsibility without any support system do you?

Its not a support system. Its more of an intimidation system. Most of what religions designate as 'sin' are not things societies have ever designated as crimes. Just catch all's designed to make everyone a 'sinner' and in need of 'saving' from themselves. Things that 'heathens' don't view as wrong. The whole sales pitch of Christianity in particular, and religion in general, is the 'only' means to prevent eternal suffering. They then proceed to call this a message of 'hope and love' When people have the relationship with other people like the one Christians say humans have with God, People get restraining orders. I don't think people would adhere to many things promoted by religion if not for the fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and the primary one Christians pitch.

 

 

What society designates as crime in a legal sense and what is overwhelmingly agreed upon as being morally impure or "bad" or "evil" or at the very least, lacking in purity, are two vastly different things. Unless you think people deserve to be praised and respected for cheating on their wives, manipulating and scamming others out of money, being a racist or otherwise prejudice, murdering babies and not tipping their waitresses, as a few examples.

 

Christianity is a message of hope. The gospel is 'good news', quite literally. But you don't need and don't understand and don't appreciate good news unless you can perceive the bad state of things.

 

As a Christian, fear was a part of my initial conversion process (which, by the way, is selfish and me-focused, and not at all respectable or desirable by God, but He accepts it nonetheless), but fear has nothing to do with my obedience and love towards Jesus now.

 

Not for nothing, but guys triumphing christianity beat my Grandfather for speaking Lakota, got my Dad slapped for reading a book...

 

Organized religion, christianity especially, is dangerous. It makes people do some crazy sh*t in the name of someone who they've never met, nor will ever meet. If you have faith in something, and that helps you get through the day, thats fine. But when that starts influencing how you feel about things and allowing it to change your mind regarding issues that it shouldn't have any bearing on, then, there's a problem.

 

 

Organized people are dangerous period. Religion, like every other organizing social custom in the world, serves as a possible enhancement to that. That's the kind of mindset the revolutionaries in France had, and once they rid their country of Christendom, things didn't get any better, and arguably got worse.

[walksalone]

Organized people are dangerous period. Religion, like every other organizing social custom in the world, serves as a possible enhancement to that. That's the kind of mindset the revolutionaries in France had, and once they rid their country of Christendom, things didn't get any better, and arguably got worse.

 

But religion is generally accepted, even though they pose a greater threat.

[tschu]

Wat if God smoked cannabis? Hit the bong like one of us? Drove a tie-dyed microbus, and he subscribed to Rolling Stone...

[walksalone]

Wat if God smoked cannabis? Hit the bong like one of us? Drove a tie-dyed microbus, and he subscribed to Rolling Stone...

 

He'd be selling sandwiches at a Phish show...

[Landlord]

Organized people are dangerous period. Religion, like every other organizing social custom in the world, serves as a possible enhancement to that. That's the kind of mindset the revolutionaries in France had, and once they rid their country of Christendom, things didn't get any better, and arguably got worse.

 

But religion is generally accepted, even though they pose a greater threat.

 

 

Who is 'they'? Or what? And greater threat than what? Or Who?