Iraq War

[carlfense]

Every single intelligence agency in the world claimed they had WMDs . . .

What?

 

I don't have one spec of sympathy for Saddam, his family or Iraq. I do have sympathy for the military men and women who were used by these pathetic politicians from around the world when they are put in a place to do a job then viewed as the bad guys.

You realize that there are innocent people in Iraq . . . right?

 

Who views our military as bad guys for Iraq? The decision to invade wasn't made by them. Don't fail to distinguish between criticizing the politics of the invasion and criticizing our military. That whole "supporting the invasion is supporting the troops" attitude is complete bunk.

[JJ Husker]

I am forever now completely against any military action in any part of the world where we are the major or sole military presence. I am so friggen sick and tired of doing something the rest of the world knows needs to be done only to have them turn on us once we start taking care of the situation.

 

Every single intelligence agency in the world claimed they had WMDs and everyone knew Saddam was a horrible tyrant. There are quotes going back years by leaders around the world (including US presidents and other leaders) claiming he had them and that something needs to be done.

 

We then have a President that steps up to the plate and finally does something about it to all of a sudden have all of those people change their tune.

 

The world is a F'ed up place. I refuse to put the US military men and women in positions where they are being used in a massive shell game/scam.

 

I don't have one spec of sympathy for Saddam, his family or Iraq. I do have sympathy for the military men and women who were used by these pathetic politicians from around the world when they are put in a place to do a job then viewed as the bad guys.

Very well said. +1

 

As for carl's point about there being innocent people in Iraq. Yes, I think we all realize that. Problem is, guilty and innocent alike let their country be controlled and put in that situation by a madman. If they would have taken care of him, the way it should be handled through revolution or uprising, it's doubtful we ever darken their doorstep. So, innocent yes in many ways but the citizens of a country are all responsible to some degree for what their leaders do. It may not be fair that some of those people had to pay the price but that is how the world works. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

[carlfense]

As for carl's point about there being innocent people in Iraq. Yes, I think we all realize that. Problem is, guilty and innocent alike let their country be controlled and put in that situation by a madman. If they would have taken care of him, the way it should be handled through revolution or uprising, it's doubtful we ever darken their doorstep. So, innocent yes in many ways but the citizens of a country are all responsible to some degree for what their leaders do. It may not be fair that some of those people had to pay the price but that is how the world works. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

@#$@ the oppressed?

[JJ Husker]

As for carl's point about there being innocent people in Iraq. Yes, I think we all realize that. Problem is, guilty and innocent alike let their country be controlled and put in that situation by a madman. If they would have taken care of him, the way it should be handled through revolution or uprising, it's doubtful we ever darken their doorstep. So, innocent yes in many ways but the citizens of a country are all responsible to some degree for what their leaders do. It may not be fair that some of those people had to pay the price but that is how the world works. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

@#$@ the oppressed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. It's called reality. Nothing I said resembles @#$@ the oppressed. I feel sorry for the innocents that got screwed over by SH. Leave a guy like that in charge long enough and things will go wrong. Could the innocents really have prevented it? I don't know but they didn't. It's kind of like feeling sorry for dog that gets run over on the highway. You feel sorry but what can ya do.

 

I remember helping out the oppressed in Afghanistan back in the early 80's. That sure paid dividends for us. Sometimes you just can't avoid these types of things no matter what ya do.

[carlfense]

As for carl's point about there being innocent people in Iraq. Yes, I think we all realize that. Problem is, guilty and innocent alike let their country be controlled and put in that situation by a madman. If they would have taken care of him, the way it should be handled through revolution or uprising, it's doubtful we ever darken their doorstep. So, innocent yes in many ways but the citizens of a country are all responsible to some degree for what their leaders do. It may not be fair that some of those people had to pay the price but that is how the world works. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

@#$@ the oppressed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. It's called reality. Nothing I said resembles @#$@ the oppressed. I feel sorry for the innocents that got screwed over by SH. Leave a guy like that in charge long enough and things will go wrong. Could the innocents really have prevented it? I don't know but they didn't. It's kind of like feeling sorry for dog that gets run over on the highway. You feel sorry but what can ya do.

 

I remember helping out the oppressed in Afghanistan back in the early 80's. That sure paid dividends for us. Sometimes you just can't avoid these types of things no matter what ya do.

That's quite a flip flop from saying "not one spec (sic) of sympathy" is "very well said."

 

It's possible that expecting some semblance of consistency in a roughly 15 minute period is expecting too much.

[knapplc]

Everyone agrees about 99% of what this thread is about. The other 1% will be debated for the next three pages for basically no reason.

 

Proceed.

[carlfense]

Everyone agrees about 99% of what this thread is about. The other 1% will be debated for the next three pages for basically no reason.

 

Proceed.

This is true.

[knapplc]

Everyone agrees about 99% of what this thread is about. The other 1% will be debated for the next three pages for basically no reason.

 

Proceed.

This is true.

The only difference being, this time I'm not going to be one of the debaters.

[strigori]

As for carl's point about there being innocent people in Iraq. Yes, I think we all realize that. Problem is, guilty and innocent alike let their country be controlled and put in that situation by a madman. If they would have taken care of him, the way it should be handled through revolution or uprising, it's doubtful we ever darken their doorstep. So, innocent yes in many ways but the citizens of a country are all responsible to some degree for what their leaders do. It may not be fair that some of those people had to pay the price but that is how the world works. Don't blame me, I don't make the rules.

@#$@ the oppressed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. It's called reality. Nothing I said resembles @#$@ the oppressed. I feel sorry for the innocents that got screwed over by SH. Leave a guy like that in charge long enough and things will go wrong. Could the innocents really have prevented it? I don't know but they didn't. It's kind of like feeling sorry for dog that gets run over on the highway. You feel sorry but what can ya do.

 

I remember helping out the oppressed in Afghanistan back in the early 80's. That sure paid dividends for us. Sometimes you just can't avoid these types of things no matter what ya do.

To some degree people are only oppressed as long as they choose to be. Nations who are not oppressed have a commonality of having thrown off the oppressor at some point in their history. The issue with most of the middle east is they tend to be culturally several centuries behind the western world.

[carlfense]

[carlfense]

Everyone agrees about 99% of what this thread is about. The other 1% will be debated for the next three pages for basically no reason.

 

Proceed.

This is true.

The only difference being, this time I'm not going to be one of the debaters.

That's too bad. You're renowned as a master debater.

[walksalone]

I just am baffled why this isn't ever brought up. At the height of the conflict there were almost 125k American boots on the ground, with roughly 75k on the ground in the Afghanistan. The logistics that go into the deployment of over 100k troops is mind boggling, not to mention the amount of money spent in Iraq. With all these resources being wasted in Iraq, they could have had a drastically positive effect in Afghanistan.

walks for SecDef.

2nd. Motion Carried. Next order of business......

 

I don't know about all that, but in the past few decades, those who make the "big" decisions for the military, have been operating with their heads in their ass.

 

One of my prime examples is "Operation Joint Endeavor". You had 3 sides (Bosnians, Croatians, & Serbians) who had been pissed at each other forever, and the thought that "oh sh*t, it's the American's, we'd better knock it off" was actually going to work. How are you going to placate one side, without pissing off the other two?

 

I've said this for years, our troops should not be used in a "peacekeeping" aspect. It should be a "break glass in time of war" cause only. You've got the U.N. to keep the peace, our troops only should be used if we have to go f*ck somebody up...

[walksalone]

Which country over there isn't untrustworthy. I say pull out , end all foreign aid and let them fend for themselves. Put more resources into the CIA for intelligence in the area.

T_O_B

i agree and spend money on just intelligence and actual homeland defense. however, the truth is that we have to be over there to ensure there is enough stability to maintain the continued transfer of their resources.

 

Almost like we need the "Cold War" era CIA back...

 

That should have never been reduced.

 

couldn't agree with you more...

[walksalone]

I am forever now completely against any military action in any part of the world where we are the major or sole military presence. I am so friggen sick and tired of doing something the rest of the world knows needs to be done only to have them turn on us once we start taking care of the situation.

 

Every single intelligence agency in the world claimed they had WMDs and everyone knew Saddam was a horrible tyrant. There are quotes going back years by leaders around the world (including US presidents and other leaders) claiming he had them and that something needs to be done.

 

We then have a President that steps up to the plate and finally does something about it to all of a sudden have all of those people change their tune.

 

The world is a F'ed up place. I refuse to put the US military men and women in positions where they are being used in a massive shell game/scam.

 

I don't have one spec of sympathy for Saddam, his family or Iraq. I do have sympathy for the military men and women who were used by these pathetic politicians from around the world when they are put in a place to do a job then viewed as the bad guys.

 

I can't +1 that enough...

[walksalone]

You realize that there are innocent people in Iraq . . . right?

 

Who views our military as bad guys for Iraq? The decision to invade wasn't made by them. Don't fail to distinguish between criticizing the politics of the invasion and criticizing our military. That whole "supporting the invasion is supporting the troops" attitude is complete bunk.

 

Carl, I know where you're going with this, and I respect and understand your position, but there are "imperfections" in this...

 

We were fighting an enemy with no discernible uniform, which makes force protection that much more difficult. You could get attacked from any direction at any time. Were there itchy trigger fingers, bet your ass there probably were. Does this make it right, probably not, but when you're worried about making it to tomorrow, sometimes your moral compass has to take a backseat to your survival.

 

My friends and I had a big argument once while watching Blackhawk Down. A young kid, maybe 12 or so, picks up an AK and aims it at you, what do you do? I was read the riot act because I would drop the kid without compunction. If it's me or the guys in my squad's life, or that kids, I'm protecting my guys.