Junior Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And so you become the monster you were supposed to be fighting. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Sully paraphrasing Nietzsche Nietzsche was a sister banging douchenozzle... You do what you have to do to protect your own, and if that means doing things that are regarded as immoral or unjust, then so be it... I wonder if our enemies use that as a justification of their actions. I think it's more based on their religion. But one other thing to think about, when the Lakota were torturing Pawnee and white settlers for infringing on their land, what would you call that? It's based on protecting themselves from the evils of Western culture. They do what they have to do to protect their own. How can we fault them for that? 1 Link to comment
zoogs Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 According to the CIA's own records torture did not work to gather good info. How do you think any crime is ever solved without torturing? Do the same things on a bigger scale. Torture doesn't work. Yeah, this is a huge (and troubling) assumption. We don't have to become the bad guys. There is a huge amount of incentive for the government to convince people of this, though. And that's why it's troubling. But then, some propaganda is probably needed for any effective war effort. This includes the 'good' wars, World War 1, 2, etc. What's scary now though, is this type of war footing we're in is constant and has no end in sight. And we're talking about fundamental human rights and civil liberties, and our views on how sacred those might be. I don't blame people for feeling the way they do. I think we're all fiercely defensive of our country, only we're focused on different perceived threats. Not to downplay them, but in my estimation, the threat of some angry anti-Western militants and terrorists against the most powerful country and military in the world is completely outweighed by the threat of that same country transforming itself from Good to No Better. There have and will always be numbers of Americans harmed by the former. There are billions in perpetuity to be affected by the latter. Please take pride in this thing we call "American exceptionalism", and the idea that we are truly a model for the world not solely because of our strength and power. Link to comment
walksalone Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 And so you become the monster you were supposed to be fighting. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Sully paraphrasing Nietzsche Nietzsche was a sister banging douchenozzle... You do what you have to do to protect your own, and if that means doing things that are regarded as immoral or unjust, then so be it... I wonder if our enemies use that as a justification of their actions. I think it's more based on their religion. But one other thing to think about, when the Lakota were torturing Pawnee and white settlers for infringing on their land, what would you call that? It's based on protecting themselves from the evils of Western culture. They do what they have to do to protect their own. How can we fault them for that? But if that were to happen now, what would you call it? Link to comment
walksalone Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 . . . For example, what would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you had the opportunity to torture the guy to find out where they were, would you? . . . How are you supposed to gather info? According to the CIA's own records torture did not work to gather good info. How do you think any crime is ever solved without torturing? Do the same things on a bigger scale. Torture doesn't work. But you're not answering my question Carl... For example, what would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you had the opportunity to torture the guy to find out where they were, would you? Link to comment
zoogs Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Heck, I'd sell my soul for my loved ones, wouldn't you? If terrorists kidnapped your loved ones and asked you to fund them, spy for them, work for them, or kill for them in exchange for release, would you do it? As long as we're getting into dark scenarios and movie/television tropes here. Link to comment
zoogs Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Perhaps the message resonates better from Republican Senator and celebrated Vietnam veteran John McCain: http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/h3d8hb/america-s-got-torture, start at 7:52 mark. "It's about us. Who we were, who we are, and who we aspire to be. It's about how we intend to represent ourselves to the world. The truth is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. But the American people are entitled to it. We are always Americans. Different, stronger, and better than those who would destroy us." Link to comment
tschu Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 walks is in favor of torture, we get it. Link to comment
Abdullah the Butcher Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/12/opinion/gergen-john-brennan-credible-on-torture-report/?c=&page=2 On the other side, we have a well-laid out defense coming from John Brennan, who worked in the White House under Bill Clinton and was so trusted by another Democrat, Barack Obama, that he was appointed to run one of the most sensitive organizations in government, the CIA. This same man admits that the CIA made many mistakes, that the interrogation program was deeply flawed, and that it was properly stopped -- but he insists that overall, CIA agents deserve respect for bravely putting their lives on the line for the country -- some 20 have died -- and very importantly, for helping to prevent a new 9/11. Given this background, isn't John Brennan at least as credible as the Committee, if not more so? Aren't his views more balanced -- and thus deserving of respect? Shouldn't his views help us to moderate the red hot coverage in the press and the monotonous partisan attacks among politicians? I think so. One more thing: Brennan asked us to keep things in perspective. We need to do that -- to remember what makes us Americans. No other country to my knowledge has been so transparent about its paramilitary techniques in the midst of a dangerous war. Indeed, we all know what the terrorists would have done had they captured a bunch of Americans: They would have butchered every last one. Good for John Brennan, he's helping us think clearly again. Link to comment
zoogs Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 I think anyone who put their lives on the line for the country deserves respect. If CIA agents are being vilified here I think that's unfair. The issue is when you have a process that is carried out with a lack of transparency, it will get out of hand with no controlling forces to reign it in. Respect for agents doesn't translate to sweeping this aside and declaring it a done and closed issue of the past, though. It's great that the US is being so transparent now -- so let's continue to be, and continue to examine where and if the lines were crossed. 1 Link to comment
carlfense Posted December 15, 2014 Author Share Posted December 15, 2014 http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/12/opinion/gergen-john-brennan-credible-on-torture-report/?c=&page=2 Given this background, isn't John Brennan at least as credible as the Committee, if not more so? Aren't his views more balanced -- and thus deserving of respect? Absolutely not. To both but particularly to the latter which is utterly laughable. Link to comment
NUpolo8 Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 This thread makes me sad. Link to comment
Abdullah the Butcher Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/politics/washington-post-abc-news-poll/1514/ Even 38% of hardcore liberals think torture is justified sometimesin the poll. Link to comment
carlfense Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Even 38% of hardcore liberals think torture is justified sometimesin the poll.This isn't a subjective issue. Good on the 62% of "hardcore liberals" with strong moral values. Link to comment
Junior Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Even 38% of hardcore liberals think torture is justified sometimesin the poll.This isn't a subjective issue.Good on the 62% of "hardcore liberals" with strong moral values. 100% of white people used to think slavery was ok. 1 Link to comment
darkhorse85 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Even 38% of hardcore liberals think torture is justified sometimesin the poll.This isn't a subjective issue.Good on the 62% of "hardcore liberals" with strong moral values. 100% of white people used to think slavery was ok. I'm sure all those Jayhawkers and John Brown would totally agree with you. Link to comment
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