walksalone Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I guess were still trying to portray ourselves as "white knights", Paladins that will vanquish evil while retaining strong moral values while being fair and just... F*ck that... We're trying to play "fair", but we're doing a sh*tty job of it currently. It seems we're the only ones making a feeble attempt to play by the book, while the enemy has never even opened the book. 1 Link to comment
walksalone Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Your mother wasn't big on drilling in the whole two wrongs lesson was she? Murdering or kidnapping people for the purpose of terrorizing a country who's policies you don't like is just as horrible. Nobody here is arguing that there shouldn't be consequences or justice for people doing that. Torturing people isn't about information, no matter what the evil jackasses running and authorizing this program try to tell you (whilst in the next sentence saying FEAR THE TERRORISTS, LOOK THE OTHER WAY OR WE'RE ALL IN DANGER!). It's about revenge, which you obviously get since you seem so eager to want to dish it out. It's about intimidation. It doesn't work on either count, in fact it weakens the perception of the US with people throughout the world which increases the people that see the US as an evil imperialist nation. It shows me that our intelligence leadership are no better then a radical warlord murdering or kidnapping children with a guerrilla army of fanatics and conscripted kids or a murderer trying to get attention with gruesome executions. The difference is we (the western world) have the means to bring people to justice and/or death in combat whilst attempting to bring them to justice and not subject them to the same barbarism that they inflict on others. Then America gets to actually be a leader in the world not some hypocritical state that seeks revenge on anyone we can get our hands on. Instead we strengthen their numbers and resolve because we let our fears take over and lose our own argument that the United States is united in it's stand for human rights and just basic human decency. Please never run for office. Have you ever served in the military? Link to comment
T_O_Bull Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 "Please never run for office." I'll win.I was taught 'Turn about is fair play' and 'You reap what you sow.'Treating these scum bags with kid gloves is the only crime here.T_O_B Link to comment
Junior Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 "Please never run for office." I'll win. I was taught 'Turn about is fair play' and 'You reap what you sow.' Treating these scum bags with kid gloves is the only crime here. T_O_B Which scum bags? This scum bag? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-terror-detainee-says-us-tortured-him/ At the age of 19, Murat Kurnaz vanished into America's shadow prison system in the war on terror. He was from Germany, traveling in Pakistan, and was picked up three months after 9/11. But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one. The story Kurnaz told 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley is a rare look inside that clandestine system of justice, where the government's own secret files reveal that an innocent man lost his liberty, his dignity, his identity, and ultimately five years of his life. Or this one? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/world/americas/25arar.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 When the United States sent Maher Arar to Syria, where he was tortured for months, the deportation order stated unequivocally that Mr. Arar, a Canadian software engineer, was a member of Al Qaeda. But a few days earlier, Canadian investigators had told the F.B.I. that they had not been able to link him to the terrorist group. Or maybe these 26 scumbags? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/opinion/the-senate-report-on-the-cias-torture-and-lies.html To make matters worse, the report said that at least 26 of the 119 known C.I.A. prisoners were wrongfully held, some of them for months after the C.I.A. determined that they should not have been taken prisoner in the first place. What's the old saying? "Better to have 10 guilty men go free than one innocent suffer" You're complaining about the monsters beheading innocent Americans, how come you aren't complaining about our CIA monsters torturing innocent people? You're using that as justification for the torture of purported terrorists. Maybe the purported terrorists are using this as justification for their actions. The funny thing is, I bet you consider yourself "Pro-Life". Link to comment
carlfense Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 And so you become the monster you were supposed to be fighting. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Sully paraphrasing Nietzsche 2 Link to comment
tschu Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Amazing how many people are deciding that torture is good all of a sudden Link to comment
carlfense Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Amazing how many people are deciding that torture is good all of a suddenW. was for it. Obama is (maybe!) half-heartedly against it. The battle lines are drawn. Throw in the always amusing "put a boot in their a$$" crowd and you get this pseudo-discussion. Link to comment
Junior Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 But most poignantly, McCain spoke of his own five-and-a-half-year captivity in Vietnam to argue that torture fails to yield credible information. "I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence. I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it. I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering." McCain added (emphatically) that "the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies, our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights." http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/John-Mccain-Speech-Senate-Republican-CIA-Torture-Report/383589/ Link to comment
carlfense Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 Here is the full report. I'm only about 1/4 of the way into it but it's well worth reading! http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=7c85429a-ec38-4bb5-968f-289799bf6d0e&SK=D500C4EBC500E1D256BA519211895909 Link to comment
walksalone Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And so you become the monster you were supposed to be fighting. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Sully paraphrasing Nietzsche Nietzsche was a sister banging douchenozzle... You do what you have to do to protect your own, and if that means doing things that are regarded as immoral or unjust, then so be it... For example, what would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you had the opportunity to torture the guy to find out where they were, would you? Amazing how many people are deciding that torture is good all of a sudden Torture isn't "good". How are you supposed to gather info? Link to comment
Junior Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And so you become the monster you were supposed to be fighting. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Sully paraphrasing Nietzsche Nietzsche was a sister banging douchenozzle... You do what you have to do to protect your own, and if that means doing things that are regarded as immoral or unjust, then so be it... I wonder if our enemies use that as a justification of their actions. 1 Link to comment
NUance Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 For example, what would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you had the opportunity to torture the guy to find out where they were, would you? Torture? I'd go to work on the homes with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. I'd get medieval on his ass. And none of that shallow grave sh#t. When I get done, I'd bury that m-f'r ten feet deep with boulders and logs on top. Link to comment
walksalone Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 And so you become the monster you were supposed to be fighting. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Sully paraphrasing Nietzsche Nietzsche was a sister banging douchenozzle... You do what you have to do to protect your own, and if that means doing things that are regarded as immoral or unjust, then so be it... I wonder if our enemies use that as a justification of their actions. I think it's more based on their religion. But one other thing to think about, when the Lakota were torturing Pawnee and white settlers for infringing on their land, what would you call that? Link to comment
walksalone Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 For example, what would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you had the opportunity to torture the guy to find out where they were, would you? Torture? I'd go to work on the homes with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. I'd get medieval on his ass. And none of that shallow grave sh#t. When I get done, I'd bury that m-f'r ten feet deep with boulders and logs on top. and thats what I mean... If you're not directly involved, it's easy to condemn those who would do things that would be considered inhumane. But if I was in that situation, I would have no problem getting the info from them, by any means necessary... Link to comment
carlfense Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 . . . For example, what would you do if a loved one was kidnapped and you had the opportunity to torture the guy to find out where they were, would you? . . . How are you supposed to gather info? According to the CIA's own records torture did not work to gather good info. How do you think any crime is ever solved without torturing? Do the same things on a bigger scale. Torture doesn't work. 1 Link to comment
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