Gender/Transgender In The Military & In General

[NM11046]

2 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

I'll look for a source but I've seen more than once references to the couple being completely aware of his religious orthodoxy beforehand.

 

 

Be that as it may, the ruling was a narrow one and could have easily gone the other way. So helpful tip if you ever want to forcibly compel a business owner with deeply orthodox religious beliefs to do something for you - don't be hostile to their religion and you'll probably win.

Don't go crazy looking for a source Landlord ... just was curious, but I don't need evidence on this one.  :-)  just find it interesting that it's been turned into "the bakery is the victim here". 

[Making Chimichangas]

19 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

 

YOU don’t get to decide what infringes on someone else’s religious liberty. They believe that gay marriage as wrong. As such, they choose not to participate in those marriages. Forcing them to do so, in violation of their religious beliefs, is the very definition of intolerance. 

 

It’s amazing how hypocritical your thinking is. You demand tolerance for yourself but so cavalierly disregard it for others.

 

So apparently words don't have meaning.

 

Alright then, explain HOW baking a freaking cake INFRINGES on someone's "religious liberty."  How does baking a freaking cake stop/prevent anyone from believing in whatever "god" they want?  How does baking a freaking cake make them UNABLE to practice their faith.  Go ahead, I'll wait...

[Making Chimichangas]

20 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

 

Absolutely correct. And that’s the choice the state is putting to their religious folks. 

 

What’s truly sad is that many like me supported gay marriage, largely based on the argument that it was none of our business, we should “live and let life,” etc. We were told it would never affect us, so why should we care?

 

It didn’t take very long for the same forces who had begged and pleaded for and demanded tolerance to show just how intolerant they truly are. Their right to be married morphed quickly into their right to trample other people’s rights by forcing them to participate in gay marriages. 

 

Yes, great logic Ric.  LBGTQIA people are intolerant because we are fighting against laws being put into place that dehumaize, degrade, demean, and takes away our rights and treats us a things not worthy of the same protections under the law as straight people..  Yes Ric, we're the "intolerant" ones, absolutely.

 

 

[Making Chimichangas]

19 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

Discrimination exists in all aspects of life and is not inherently bad. I discriminate against every maker of cars other than the one I decided to buy. I discriminate against certain types of clothing I don't like. I discriminate against women I don't find attractive when I'm dating. 

 

If they owned a tire shop and were selling tires, they shouldn't be allowed to legally discriminate, and they aren't allowed to legally discriminate.

 

If the couple had asked for a generic cake out of a case, they shouldn't be allowed to legally discriminate, and they aren't allowed to legally discriminate. 

 

When it comes to issues and extensions of the First Amendment, which is what this scenario and all scenarios where creative professionals are using artistic/creative/artisanal abilities to express themselves, they should absolutely be able to legally discriminate - that's literally what freedom is. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's weird how you paint the bakery into a hypothetical corner scenario only to criticize it (definition of a straw man argument), while actually completely ignoring the real life scenario in which the bakery was intentionally targeted by the couple, then unfairly and unjustly treated with hostility by the Civil Rights Commission.

 

 

 

I didn't paint them imto any corner.  I'm simply asking a question:

 

How does baking a cake , serving pizza, anything business related, INFRINGE on a religious business owner's religious liberty?  How?

 

Because to me, if I am INFRINGING on someone's liberty, then that means that said person can no longer do whatever activity is being infringed upon, right?

 

And if you think freedom means the right to discriminate against someone in the public sector, by denying that person access to something available to everyone else...then you and I have VASTLY different definitions for freedom.

[Moiraine]

What if the cake was supposed to have penises on it?

[Making Chimichangas]

@Ric Flair and @Landlord,

 

I will say one more thing...

 

Yesterday baking a wedding cake "infringes" on someone's religious liberty.

 

Today, LBGTQIA people wanting to adopt kids is infringing on someone's religious liberty...

 

What's it going to be tomorrow?  Cars?  Homes?  Medical treatment?

 

Where does it end?[/b]

 

I need you guys to stop for 5 seconds and take a look at where this road is headed.  This road is headed towards the complete easure and elimination of LBGTQIA people from society.  That is the "christian" right's goal and they will not stop until we're all dead.

[Landlord]

3 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

How does baking a cake , serving pizza, anything business related, INFRINGE on a religious business owner's religious liberty?  How?

 

Being forced to bake a cake, as an act of creative expression, infringes on his freedom of speech. Forget religious liberty for a second - the government is not allowed to dictate what you may or may not watch, listen to, or read, and similarly, the government is not allowed to forbid you from creating something artistically (with rare exceptions), or to compel you to create something artistically.

 

I guess I'm just assuming that you understand how the first amendment works, but maybe you don't. It doesn't really matter the reason or motivation behind the artisan's decision to make or not make something - they're given that reason and it can't be taken away. If it could, then you and anyone else could also similarly be forced to create things you found unethical. Black catering companies could be forced to cater KKK rallies - Jewish painters could be forced to take commissions depicting Nazi concentration camps - a Native sculptor could be forced to create a celebratory statue bust of Christopher Columbus or Andrew Jackson.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

@Ric Flair and @Landlord,

 

I will say one more thing...

 

Yesterday baking a wedding cake "infringes" on someone's religious liberty.

 

Today, LBGTQIA people wanting to adopt kids is infringing on someone's religious liberty...

 

What's it going to be tomorrow?  Cars?  Homes?  Medical treatment?

 

Where does it end?[/b]

 

I need you guys to stop for 5 seconds and take a look at where this road is headed.  This road is headed towards the complete easure and elimination of LBGTQIA people from society.  That is the "christian" right's goal and they will not stop until we're all dead.

 

It's exhausting talking with you on this topic, like many others you are personally passionate about (which I appreciate), because I don't think you're capable of seeing things rationally. No, gay people wanting to adopt kids is not infringing on anyone's liberty. No, it will not be cars, homes, or medical treatment tomorrow.

 

This road isn't "headed" anywhere. This road is paved by the Constitution and the 1st Amendment (and all others), and hasn't stopped being paved in that way since the founding of our country. If anything, this road is headed towards more freedom and equality for LGBTQ+ people as well as all others. Justice Kennedy gave your "side" the real win in offering up a fool-proof strategy for these scenarios in the future, and for the Supreme Court only narrowly ruling in this particular instance and not broadly across all similar scenarios across the country. 

 

 

You need to find a better representative example of how LGBTQ people are on the brink of extinction at the hands of the Christian right, because this isn't an example of that whatsoever.

[Making Chimichangas]

55 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

Being forced to bake a cake, as an act of creative expression, infringes on his freedom of speech. Forget religious liberty for a second - the government is not allowed to dictate what you may or may not watch, listen to, or read, and similarly, the government is not allowed to forbid you from creating something artistically (with rare exceptions), or to compel you to create something artistically.

 

I guess I'm just assuming that you understand how the first amendment works, but maybe you don't. It doesn't really matter the reason or motivation behind the artisan's decision to make or not make something - they're given that reason and it can't be taken away. If it could, then you and anyone else could also similarly be forced to create things you found unethical. Black catering companies could be forced to cater KKK rallies - Jewish painters could be forced to take commissions depicting Nazi concentration camps - a Native sculptor could be forced to create a celebratory statue bust of Christopher Columbus or Andrew Jackson.

 

 

 

 

 

It's exhausting talking with you on this topic, like many others you are personally passionate about (which I appreciate), because I don't think you're capable of seeing things rationally. No, gay people wanting to adopt kids is not infringing on anyone's liberty. No, it will not be cars, homes, or medical treatment tomorrow.

 

This road isn't "headed" anywhere. This road is paved by the Constitution and the 1st Amendment (and all others), and hasn't stopped being paved in that way since the founding of our country. If anything, this road is headed towards more freedom and equality for LGBTQ+ people as well as all others. Justice Kennedy gave your "side" the real win in offering up a fool-proof strategy for these scenarios in the future, and for the Supreme Court only narrowly ruling in this particular instance and not broadly across all similar scenarios across the country. 

 

 

You need to find a better representative example of how LGBTQ people are on the brink of extinction at the hands of the Christian right, because this isn't an example of that whatsoever.

 

Please don't be condescending and blithely state that you doubt I know what the 1st Amendment stands for. 

 

And what happens when Trump nomimates a couple more conservative justices which tilt the court even further to the right?

 

You're right, it is exhausting talking to you because you are unable to see the nefarious agenda behind these "religious liberty" cases.  It's a carefully orchestrated plan to erase LBGTQIA people, to take away all of our rights, and to either kill us or force us into conversion therapy.  But you don't see that happening because none of these laws will ever affect you. 

 

*Laws are passed which say I can't use the restroom of my identified gender.

*Laws are passed saying one person's "religious liberty" is more important than someone else's rights to have equal access to goods and services in the public market place.

*Laws are passed which deny LBGTQIA people the right to adopt kids if we want to do so.

 

All these laws are passed, specifically targeting LBGTQIA people, and you're going to condescendingly chide me about not being to talk about this "rationally?"  Are you kidding me??

 

And I will never apologize for being passionate about fighting against laws and policies that want to dehumanize and demonize LBGTQIA people.  

 

I wish there was SOME way I could make you see what is really happening here.  You think because you're open-minded about LBGTQIA people that most people think like you.  They do not.  Hopefully one of these days, the proverbial light bulb will go on for you.  What will it take for that to happen? 

[Landlord]

You're conflating this very specific situation (with it's own unique context) with other good, real examples of anti-LGBTQ legislation. It doesn't belong in the same conversation. 

 

And I did not state that I doubt you know what the 1st Amendment stands for. I said, quite clearly, that I assumed you understood how it works, and that I might be wrong in assuming. I never suggested or assumed that you didn't know what it was.

[Making Chimichangas]

I wanted to *bump* this thread in light of what happened in a small town in Oklahoma.

 

This Is Why I Am So Angry Most Of The Time

[Ric Flair]

Here comes the lynch mob again for Jack Phillips and his bakery. This is absolutely despicable.

 

Quote

Here’s what happened. According to a verified complaint filed today by my old colleagues at the Alliance Defending Freedom, on June 26, 2017 — the very day the Supreme Court granted Jack’s request to review his wedding-cake case — a lawyer named Autumn Scardina called Masterpiece Cakeshop and “asked Masterpiece Cakeshop to create a custom cake with ‘a blue exterior and a pink interior’ — a cake ‘design’ that, according to the lawyer,” reflected “the fact that [the lawyer] transitioned from male-to-female and that [the lawyer] had come out as transgender.”

 

Lest anyone wonder whether this request was made in good faith, consider that this same person apparently made a number of requests to Masterpiece Cakeshop. In September 2017, a caller asked Phillips to design a birthday cake for Satan that would feature an image of Satan smoking marijuana. The name “Scardina” appeared on the caller identification. A few days earlier, a person had emailed Jack asking for a cake with a similar theme — except featuring “an upside-down cross, under the head of Lucifer.” This same emailer reminded Phillips that “religion is a protected class.”

 

On the very day that Phillips won his case at the Supreme Court, a person emailed with yet another deliberately offensive design request:

I’m thinking a three-tiered white cake. Cheesecake frosting. And the topper should be a large figure of Satan, licking a 9″ black Dildo. I would like the dildo to be an actual working model, that can be turned on before we unveil the cake. I can provide it for you if you don’t have the means to procure one yourself.

And finally, two days later, a person identifying as “Autumn Marie” visited Phillips’s shop and requested a cake featuring a pentagram. According to ADF, “Phillips believes that person was Autumn Scardina.”

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/colorado-civil-rights-commission-jack-phillips-case/

[Ric Flair]

On 6/22/2018 at 1:24 AM, Making Chimichangas said:

 

Please don't be condescending and blithely state that you doubt I know what the 1st Amendment stands for. 

 

And what happens when Trump nomimates a couple more conservative justices which tilt the court even further to the right?

 

You're right, it is exhausting talking to you because you are unable to see the nefarious agenda behind these "religious liberty" cases.  It's a carefully orchestrated plan to erase LBGTQIA people, to take away all of our rights, and to either kill us or force us into conversion therapy.  But you don't see that happening because none of these laws will ever affect you. 

 

*Laws are passed which say I can't use the restroom of my identified gender.

*Laws are passed saying one person's "religious liberty" is more important than someone else's rights to have equal access to goods and services in the public market place.

*Laws are passed which deny LBGTQIA people the right to adopt kids if we want to do so.

 

All these laws are passed, specifically targeting LBGTQIA people, and you're going to condescendingly chide me about not being to talk about this "rationally?"  Are you kidding me??

 

And I will never apologize for being passionate about fighting against laws and policies that want to dehumanize and demonize LBGTQIA people.  

 

I wish there was SOME way I could make you see what is really happening here.  You think because you're open-minded about LBGTQIA people that most people think like you.  They do not.  Hopefully one of these days, the proverbial light bulb will go on for you.  What will it take for that to happen? 

 

It’s amazing to me that you see other Americans exercising their rights to freedom of speech, religion, etc. as merely some sort of trickery and a pretext to oppress gay people. Because in your view this is all part of a gigantic and nefarious plot to either kill gay people or force them into conversion therapy. That’s a truly bizarre take on what’s happening here.

[NM11046]

52 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

It’s amazing to me that you see other Americans exercising their rights to freedom of speech, religion, etc. as merely some sort of trickery and a pretext to oppress gay people. Because in your view this is all part of a gigantic and nefarious plot to either kill gay people or force them into conversion therapy. That’s a truly bizarre take on what’s happening here.

If it's freedom of speech/religion/etc then feel free to say bad things to the gay ordering a cake, let them know you are Baptist and don't agree with their lifestyle and then bake the damn cake.  Or only bake cakes for the members of your church and those you know the spouses of.  You can't pick and choose if you run a public business. 

 

If you choose to discriminate then you should be required to post who you will and will not serve.

 

Front door:

This business welcomes straight, god fearing men and women.

If you are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, atheist etc we would be happy to share a list of businesses that will serve you.

 

Would this baker post this?

[Landlord]

3 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

I wanted to *bump* this thread in light of what happened in a small town in Oklahoma.

 

This Is Why I Am So Angry Most Of The Time

 

 

This is incredibly disheartening and awful. There's no arguing against that, and LGBTQ+ people usually go through some horrific abuse and social ostracizing that most other people can't imagine. Especially in a place like Achille, Oklahoma.

 

Cross-referencing this with the other discrimination by businesses' thread though, what do you suppose is a solution? Policy wise? Do everything we can to make her physically and emotionally safe, but that sadly won't change any of this behavior imo.

[Landlord]

49 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

If it's freedom of speech/religion/etc then feel free to say bad things to the gay ordering a cake, let them know you are Baptist and don't agree with their lifestyle and then bake the damn cake.

 

Designing a custom cake as an artist is an extension of free speech. Refusing to sell a baked cake already made, or available as a default or neutral template, is not.