Who was the better RB? Roy Helu or Brandon Jackson?

[In the Deed the Glory]

This is what I posted in the other thread.

 

There is evidence to suggest that Brandon Jackson is equal to if not better than Helu, even if it's in a couple of ways.

 

First of all, Brandon Jackson did in fact rush for over 1,000 yards in a season (2006), but net losses took him 11 yards short of this accomplishment and he had to settle for 989. In said season, Jackson had 188 carries (32 less than Helu) and a 5.3 ypc avg. (compared to Helu's 5.2). He did have two fewer touchdowns then Helu, however.

 

But there are a couple of intangibles here as to why I would give Jackson a slight edge.

1) He had proven skills breaking runs to the outside or keeping them inside between the tackles. Helu, thus far, has shown he is a much better perimeter guy than he is a power guy.

2) Injuries never plagued Jackson. He remained relatively healthy through his entire college career and was very reliable. Helu has been unable to make it through an entire season without being hampered by some sort of issue.

3) Jackson is on an NFL roster. Not to say making an NFL roster equates to college talent, because I do not believe such a thing. However, he obviously had all of the physical tools to take himself to the next level. This may be a personal feeling, but I don't see Helu having an easy go at an NFL team because of his injuries and inability to be consistently effective between the tackles.

 

and here is my quote from the other thread....sorry I'm late to the party on this one!!x

 

Ok.....I don't want to get into a pissing match here, but you're telling me that a guy with less yards, less carries, relatively the same ypc, and less touchdowns is better? On top of that, you say that Helu doesn't run between the tackles and Jackson did and did so more effectively. I would point to the relative strength of the offensive line that year compared to last, the determination to pound the rock that the team as a whole adopted under the current running game coordinator for the New York Jets, and the fact that there were far more options at RB at the time.

 

I would like to just point out that if a guy has less carries than another who had to basically miss 3 1/2 games, you cannot make an intelligent observation about his durability. Think about your reasoning for a second: He's more durable because he was never injured (which is untrue, he was unbelievably injury prone when he first arrived at NU, the main reason he didn't see the field in anyway but special teams.) Wouldn't it stand to reason that B-Jax was never injured because he was on the field far less often, took much less of a pounding because we had Cody Glenn, and carried the ball less times. 32 carries is almost 3 a game and Helu missed 3 1/2 games.

 

I'm not a Helu lover, or a B-Jax hater. I just like to be objective. Helu hurt his shoulder, played through it with a terribly injured offensive line in front of him and still torched Oklahoma, again. He had no backup for half of the year when Burkhead was raw/injured. Jackson had Marlon Lucky and Cody Glenn. I'm a Packer fan and love B-Jax, but lets not make him more than he was.

 

edit: I forgot about Kenny Wilson as far as sharing carries.

Edited March 29, 2010 by In the Deed the Glory

[In the Deed the Glory]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

[carlfense]

Helu no doubt.....there is a reason that people were surprised that jackson was drafted in the second round. he was projected to be drafted no sooner that the 4th round but green bay stretched it more than a little. they are somewhat close but helu is the clear leader.

Not that draft position is directly relevant anyways . . . but I'd be more shocked if Helu was picked in the 4th round than I was that BJax was picked in the 2nd.

 

I agree with the idea that the comparison is not that close . . . but place me squarely in the BJax was better camp.

 

In the Deed the Glory points out that BJax is not touched until 3 yards downfield. However, I'd add that BJax is almost certainly the clear winner as far as yards after contact. I can't find anywhere that lists that stat so I'm just guessing here. Maybe someone knows of a place where they keep this stat?

[Husker Richard]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

 

Valid point.

[NUance]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

Good point this. You plug Helu into our 2006 offense and he is a star. Probably would be All Big 12 and go at least as high as Bjax in the 2007 NFL draft.

[carlfense]

I'm not a Helu lover, or a B-Jax hater. I just like to be objective. Helu hurt his shoulder, played through it with a terribly injured offensive line in front of him and still torched Oklahoma, again. He had no backup for half of the year when Burkhead was raw/injured. Jackson had Marlon Lucky and Cody Glenn. I'm a Packer fan and love B-Jax, but lets not make him more than he was.

 

Let's break these down . . . you say in another reply that Helu had more carries and more total yards. Then you downplay the fact that BJax's yards per carry was greater. Assuming his yards per carry stays relatively constant wouldn't that result in more yards for BJax if he had as many carries as Helu? If anything those statistics swing in favor of Bjax.

 

Helu hurt his shoulder and as a result saw limited action. How exactly does that make Helu better?

 

If anything, BJax stats were hurt and not helped by sharing carries with Lucky, Glenn, and Wilson. His total yards would have went up and BJax would have had all of those short yardage touchdowns that were given to Glenn and Lucky.

 

Like you said, I'm not a BJax hater or a Helu lover. I just like to be objective.

[Pedro Guerrero]

3 year total for Brandon Jackson = 1431 rushing yards (4.9 ypc) and 313 receiving yards

3 year total(not including SR. year) for Marlon Lucky = 1910 rushing yards (4.9 ypc) and 1091 receiving yards

3 year total for Roy Helu JR = 2159 rushing yards (5.5 ypc) and 455 receiving yards

 

What does this all mean? Who knows but if you base opinions on solely the stats alone B-Jax is way behind.

[carlfense]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

Good point this. You plug Helu into our 2006 offense and he is a star. Probably would be All Big 12 and go at least as high as Bjax in the 2007 NFL draft.

 

Regarding your draft thoughts: not with his durability issue he wouldn't. I agree Helu would have been a star behind the 2006 offensive line. That's definitely one of the bright spots of the Callahan years.

[husker B-rent]

I'm not a Helu lover, or a B-Jax hater. I just like to be objective. Helu hurt his shoulder, played through it with a terribly injured offensive line in front of him and still torched Oklahoma, again. He had no backup for half of the year when Burkhead was raw/injured. Jackson had Marlon Lucky and Cody Glenn. I'm a Packer fan and love B-Jax, but lets not make him more than he was.

 

Let's break these down . . . you say in another reply that Helu had more carries and more total yards. Then you downplay the fact that BJax's yards per carry was greater. Assuming his yards per carry stays relatively constant wouldn't that result in more yards for BJax if he had as many carries as Helu? If anything those statistics swing in favor of Bjax.

 

Helu hurt his shoulder and as a result saw limited action. How exactly does that make Helu better?

 

If anything, BJax stats were hurt and not helped by sharing carries with Lucky, Glenn, and Wilson. His total yards would have went up and BJax would have had all of those short yardage touchdowns that were given to Glenn and Lucky.

 

Like you said, I'm not a BJax hater or a Helu lover. I just like to be objective.

 

you arent being very objective though. yes if he had more carries his total yards would have increased but at the same time his YPC would have likely decreased as is the case with most RBs. when helu wasnt the feature back he was gaining over 6 YPC....

[husker B-rent]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

Good point this. You plug Helu into our 2006 offense and he is a star. Probably would be All Big 12 and go at least as high as Bjax in the 2007 NFL draft.

 

Regarding your draft thoughts: not with his durability issue he wouldn't. I agree Helu would have been a star behind the 2006 offensive line. That's definitely one of the bright spots of the Callahan years.

......and jackson was just as injury prone....

[In the Deed the Glory]

Individual Rushing Statistics:

 

Roy Helu, Jr.

att yds avg lng TD rec yds avg lng TD

Fr 45 209 4.6 24 0 5 40 8.0 21 0 0 0

So 125 803 6.4 57 7 25 266 10.627 0 0 0

Jr 220 11475.2 63 9 19 149 7.8 27 0 0 0

 

Brandon Jackson

att yds avg lng TD rec yds avg lng TD

Fr 85 390 4.6 24 6 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0

So 18 52 2.9 10 0 1 5 5.0 5 0 0 0

Jr 188 989 5.3 48 8 33 313 9.5 49 2 0 0

 

Team offensive statistics

 

2009:

NU OPP

--------------------------------------------------------

 

RUSHING YARDAGE............... 2059 1304

Rushing Attempts............ 512 465

Average Per Rush............ 4.0 2.8

Average Per Game............ 147.1 93.1

TDs Rushing................. 20 7

PASSING YARDAGE............ 2460

 

 

2006:

NU OPP

--------------------------------------------------------

 

RUSHING YARDAGE............... 2387 1632

Rushing Attempts............ 554 436

Average Per Rush............ 4.3 3.7

Average Per Game............ 170.5 116.6

TDs Rushing................. 27 14

PASSING YARDAGE........... 3417

 

So.............

 

What does all this tell us? It tells us that the 2006 offense was substantially better first of all. 1,000 more passing yards in the same amount of games. The ypc is .3 higher for 2006 vs 2009. 23 more yards per game on the ground and 68 more in the air. That is going to make running the ball a little easier when you have a threat to pass. It tells us that it made the job easier for a far better offensive line than we see in 2009.

 

2009 had 1 other running back over 300 yds....Rex Burkhead with 360. (Zac Lee did gain 315)

2006 had 3 other running backs over 300 yds....Marlon Lucky with over 700, Cody Glenn and Kenny Wilson both over 300 totalling 1491 yds.

 

So everyone was successful running the ball at RB for Nebraska in 2006. Only two were last season, as we all know.

 

Granted, some of this success could have to do with the prowess of Brandon Jackson, but looking at the way this team was set up I would say it was the unpredictability along with the dominance of the offensive line.

 

If you look at a more comparable season it would be the 2008 offense, which had several good runners in it. It featured 3 running backs over 400 yds (and Joe Ganz with over 200). That year would be a better one to look at durability and fatigue for the two backs, along with a more comparable offense. (numbers are nearly identical)

 

This would show Helu with a 6.4 avg and 7 TD and Jackson with a 5.3 avg and 8 TD. For their careers the advantage, if we are merely talking about ypc which is really the only fair way to do this, would go to Helu at 5.5 ypc compared to 4.9 ypc for Jackson.

 

So Helu, with what appears to be a less successful offensive line and passing game, averages more than a half a yard better per carry for his career.

 

I stay with my vote for Roy, and he has another year to improve.

[husker B-rent]

Individual Rushing Statistics:

 

Roy Helu, Jr.

att yds avg lng TD rec yds avg lng TD

Fr 45 209 4.6 24 0 5 40 8.0 21 0 0 0

So 125 803 6.4 57 7 25 266 10.627 0 0 0

Jr 220 11475.2 63 9 19 149 7.8 27 0 0 0

 

Brandon Jackson

att yds avg lng TD rec yds avg lng TD

Fr 85 390 4.6 24 6 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0

So 18 52 2.9 10 0 1 5 5.0 5 0 0 0

Jr 188 989 5.3 48 8 33 313 9.5 49 2 0 0

 

Team offensive statistics

 

2009:

NU OPP

--------------------------------------------------------

 

RUSHING YARDAGE............... 2059 1304

Rushing Attempts............ 512 465

Average Per Rush............ 4.0 2.8

Average Per Game............ 147.1 93.1

TDs Rushing................. 20 7

PASSING YARDAGE............ 2460

 

 

2006:

NU OPP

--------------------------------------------------------

 

RUSHING YARDAGE............... 2387 1632

Rushing Attempts............ 554 436

Average Per Rush............ 4.3 3.7

Average Per Game............ 170.5 116.6

TDs Rushing................. 27 14

PASSING YARDAGE........... 3417

 

So.............

 

What does all this tell us? It tells us that the 2006 offense was substantially better first of all. 1,000 more passing yards in the same amount of games. The ypc is .3 higher for 2006 vs 2009. 23 more yards per game on the ground and 68 more in the air. That is going to make running the ball a little easier when you have a threat to pass. It tells us that it made the job easier for a far better offensive line than we see in 2009.

 

2009 had 1 other running back over 300 yds....Rex Burkhead with 360. (Zac Lee did gain 315)

2006 had 3 other running backs over 300 yds....Marlon Lucky with over 700, Cody Glenn and Kenny Wilson both over 300 totalling 1491 yds.

 

So everyone was successful running the ball at RB for Nebraska in 2006. Only two were last season, as we all know.

 

Granted, some of this success could have to do with the prowess of Brandon Jackson, but looking at the way this team was set up I would say it was the unpredictability along with the dominance of the offensive line.

 

If you look at a more comparable season it would be the 2008 offense, which had several good runners in it. It featured 3 running backs over 400 yds (and Joe Ganz with over 200). That year would be a better one to look at durability and fatigue for the two backs, along with a more comparable offense. (numbers are nearly identical)

 

This would show Helu with a 6.4 avg and 7 TD and Jackson with a 5.3 avg and 8 TD. For their careers the advantage, if we are merely talking about ypc which is really the only fair way to do this, would go to Helu at 5.5 ypc compared to 4.9 ypc for Jackson.

 

So Helu, with what appears to be a less successful offensive line and passing game, averages more than a half a yard better per carry for his career.

 

I stay with my vote for Roy, and he has another year to improve.

 

very well said sir. dont know what some people have against helu.

[carlfense]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

Good point this. You plug Helu into our 2006 offense and he is a star. Probably would be All Big 12 and go at least as high as Bjax in the 2007 NFL draft.

 

Regarding your draft thoughts: not with his durability issue he wouldn't. I agree Helu would have been a star behind the 2006 offensive line. That's definitely one of the bright spots of the Callahan years.

......and jackson was just as injury prone....

I can't agree with that. Helu was dinged up in one way or another all season. Even Bo seemed frustrated with Helu's constantly injured status. I believe someone on here commented that Helu's injuries are the type that most backs play through without much in the way of complaining. I think it might have been BigWillie. (not to put words in your mouth willie and correct me if I'm wrong)

[NUance]

Forget the Running Backs, this isn't a fair comparison.

 

Look at the offensive lines. How many times is Brandon Jackson even touched before he is 3 yards downfield? Maybe twice?

 

Helu has people in his face immediately, that is why he is bouncing outside. Man our line the last two years has been pretty sad.

Good point this. You plug Helu into our 2006 offense and he is a star. Probably would be All Big 12 and go at least as high as Bjax in the 2007 NFL draft.

 

Regarding your draft thoughts: not with his durability issue he wouldn't. I agree Helu would have been a star behind the 2006 offensive line. That's definitely one of the bright spots of the Callahan years.

......and jackson was just as injury prone....

I can't agree with that. Helu was dinged up in one way or another all season. Even Bo seemed frustrated with Helu's constantly injured status. I believe someone on here commented that Helu's injuries are the type that most backs play through without much in the way of complaining. I think it might have been BigWillie. (not to put words in your mouth willie and correct me if I'm wrong)

Brandon Jackson had setbacks too. He had an offseason shoulder injury his soph year 2005 that made him miss some time. Seems like Bjax injured his shoulder again his junior year. He had a good season that year though.

 

The point above about the O-lines is valid. Bjax ran behind a MUCH better line that Helu has had. Hard to judge between them on toughness. Both have had injuries. But Helu has more speed. He has another gear that Bjax lacked.

[Enhance]

Not even close (well sort of close)...

 

B-Jax played for Callahan and didn't even begin to see the bulk of the carries until at least a quarter of the way into his final year. If B-Jax didn't get buried on the depth chart due to favoritism like frequently happened under BC, this wouldn't even be a point to argue in my opinion.

 

B-Jax is/was the best back we've had at Lincoln since....? This is the real question in my opinion. Who was the last really really really good back (almost great) prior to B-Jax?

 

And yes, if Helu stays healthy and plays like he did at Va Tech ALL YEAR, I will alter this tune a little bit about the 'not even a question' statement.

 

Not favoritism! Sometimes, good players get buried. That's the nature of the game. If Callahan really played favorites, BJax wouldn't have gotten his shot as a junior. We had a four-back stable that year and Jackson emerged to take charge because he proved his worth, even though he was coming back from some injuries and being mostly invisible to Husker fans. Now we want to go back and claim Callahan played favorites with Lucky? How? Lucky had his shot that year, and couldn't hang onto it and Callahan went with Jackson instead.

 

Cory Ross (right before BJax if I remember) was pretty darn good, too.

 

I think Jackson and Helu are pretty different styles. I love watching Helu but I would hardly mind a back like Jackson either. I think I'll go with Helu just because he's more recent in memory.

 

Listen to player interviews about the Callahan era and how people got to see the field... from their mouths (or mouthes?.

 

 

Keller over Ganz anyone???

I've heard that that was partly a problem of Ganz looking average in practice and Keller looking great in practice. Turns out that was the exact opposite when they actually played in real games. I don't know if that's true or not. I believe it. Ganz was a competitor . . . he turned it up a notch in games. I didn't ever see him practice.

Not to say this is true, as it is purely speculative, but that one just screams favoritism to me. Keller was a transfer from Arizona State with only one year of eligibility left. Callahan really wanted this guy because of his pro-style quarterback play.

 

So, even if Callahan thought Keller was better in practices, it wouldn't look very good if he had spent all this time trying to get him to come to Nebraska, but then switching up and giving the starting job to Ganz. It very well could have been a case of Callahan wanting Keller to succeed rather than than looking like a fool and giving the job to Ganz.

 

I think it also has fairly credible evidence. There have been numerous player accounts where Callahan would focus heavily on the first teamers and just let other guys stand around and watch. Perhaps Callahan never gave Ganz enough opportunities in practice to try and unseat Keller? We will never know; however, going by what we have heard about Callahan, it wouldn't surprise me if this were true.

 

Everyone from the coaches to the players have said that the starting job was an open competition. In fact, it was the Husker fanbase that just assumed Keller was an ubertalent and that the coaches were just trying to be nice when they said it was a close race so as not to make Ganz transfer. Turns out, Ganz was better than we all thought. But the coaches knew that and the fans didn't - but now we try to make like it was the other way around. Keller won the job outright, as BigWillie can tell you (might be where you heard it, carlfense). Some of the same Husker fans that wrote Ganz off as an afterthought then are now claiming coaching biases! (Not making an accusation at anyone, mind)

 

And how does focusing on the 1's supply evidence that Callahan played favorites? What's wrong with focusing on the starters? Different coaches have different philosophies, but concentrating on the 1's is a perfectly legitimate one. I'm sure Bo & co don't devote the same coaching and attention to 3rd teamers and scout team guys than they do the guys that are lining up every Saturday on the field.

 

I tend to think this "favorites" sentiment comes more from just the general anti-Callahan feelings many of us have (as you said - it's the kind of thing that "wouldn't surprise you" if it were true). I don't know though. Willie's one of the most knowledgeable people on this board, and he's called out Barney Cotton on favoritism more than Callahan, if at all.

Well, imho, this is how it supplies evidence. When you hear stories of players not seeing nearly as many reps as the 1's and spending a lot of time not doing anything, and then you have performance like the 2007 team, it kind of all fits into one.