What do you classify yourself as and what do you define that as?

[Ratt Mhule]

I really don't understand how anyone can, in good conscience, describe God's will to another person. If I interpret it the way that I interpret it, how can I possibly be wrong about it? How the hell do you know what's the correct one?

 

The tenets and the doctrines of christianity have been interpreted thousands of times and redone another thousand. The original canon didn't even include all the books written on the subject.

 

What's the difference between your interpretation of the bible and the Westboro idiots? A whole hell of a lot surely. But what's the similarities between your interpretation of the bible and the Westboro idiots? The holy bible.

 

You can't tell me in the same breath that the Westboro church are evil bigots and the bible isn't full of evil and bigotry when it's all the same book.

 

I guess I don't quite understand your question. How can I understand Gods will for myself? Or how can I know Gods will for you or someone else?

 

And the difference between us and Westboro is the way we live our lives. We live our lives by loving God with our whole heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors like ourselves (we try at least). They live full of hatred for everyone that isn't part of their cult. That is the difference. Has nothing to do with the Bible.

[bennychico11]

And the difference between us and Westboro is the way we live our lives. We live our lives by loving God with our whole heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors like ourselves (we try at least). They live full of hatred for everyone that isn't part of their cult. That is the difference. Has nothing to do with the Bible.

 

I think he's saying that you both read from the same book. But you both get (and preach) completely different things out of it. They choose to pick verses that fit their lifestyle as you choose verses that fit yours. You just happen interpret the Bible as containing a god that loves everyone. You focus on the Christ story and not on the vengeful god of the Old Testament. That you should love thy neighbor and treat everyone as you would want to be treated...rather than kill those who don't obey god.

Westboro (and many other people...the Topeka clan just is more vocal about it) pick the parts of the Bible to help support their view. "God hates gay people because in Leviticus 20:13..."

 

You both believe in the same god. You both agree the Bible is god's word. But why don't you interpret the hate in the same way they do? And vice versa. Who's interpretation is right?

[Landlord]

And the difference between us and Westboro is the way we live our lives. We live our lives by loving God with our whole heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors like ourselves (we try at least). They live full of hatred for everyone that isn't part of their cult. That is the difference. Has nothing to do with the Bible.

 

I think he's saying that you both read from the same book. But you both get (and preach) completely different things out of it. They choose to pick verses that fit their lifestyle as you choose verses that fit yours. You just happen interpret the Bible as containing a god that loves everyone. You focus on the Christ story and not on the vengeful god of the Old Testament. That you should thy neighbor and treat everyone as you would want to be treated...rather than kill those who don't obey god.

Westboro (and many other people...the Topeka clan just is more vocal about it) pick the parts of the Bible to help support their view. "God hates gay people because in Leviticus 20:13..."

 

You both believe in the same god. You both agree the Bible is god's word. But why don't you interpret the hate in the same way they do? And vice versa. Who's interpretation is right?

 

 

While it's a legitimate point, to an extent, the differences between Westboro and Christians are obvious, and based on common sense. Logic and reason have a role here, although people like to argue that you can't use them because they aren't definable. Reason tells me that Westboro Baptist members have an agenda of their own rather than of the Lord's, that their lives are nothing even remotely close to the way Jesus lived and commanded others to live, and seek to justify and explain away all of their actions, tailoring the Bible to themselves rather than tailoring their lives around the Bible (which isn't to say that most Christians don't do this).

[huskerjack23]

And the difference between us and Westboro is the way we live our lives. We live our lives by loving God with our whole heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors like ourselves (we try at least). They live full of hatred for everyone that isn't part of their cult. That is the difference. Has nothing to do with the Bible.

 

I think he's saying that you both read from the same book. But you both get (and preach) completely different things out of it. They choose to pick verses that fit their lifestyle as you choose verses that fit yours. You just happen interpret the Bible as containing a god that loves everyone. You focus on the Christ story and not on the vengeful god of the Old Testament. That you should thy neighbor and treat everyone as you would want to be treated...rather than kill those who don't obey god.

Westboro (and many other people...the Topeka clan just is more vocal about it) pick the parts of the Bible to help support their view. "God hates gay people because in Leviticus 20:13..."

 

You both believe in the same god. You both agree the Bible is god's word. But why don't you interpret the hate in the same way they do? And vice versa. Who's interpretation is right?

 

 

While it's a legitimate point, to an extent, the differences between Westboro and Christians are obvious, and based on common sense. Logic and reason have a role here, although people like to argue that you can't use them because they aren't definable. Reason tells me that Westboro Baptist members have an agenda of their own rather than of the Lord's, that their lives are nothing even remotely close to the way Jesus lived and commanded others to live, and seek to justify and explain away all of their actions, tailoring the Bible to themselves rather than tailoring their lives around the Bible (which isn't to say that most Christians don't do this).

You're making a claim to also know the Lord's will and that they don't, that's as arrogant as Westboro. You may say that they are wrong and tailoring it to themselves but I would believe that they hold to a more literal interpretation of the bible than you do, making them more valid just by keeping with its tenets.

 

Logic and reason can be used in this area but you're not going far enough. You didn't apply it to your own beliefs. Seriously, the last sentence you typed, is what you just did in regards to interpreting the bible. You might live your life as close to Jesus' philosophies as you can, but if you disregard the slavery of the OT, the killing of disobedient children and adulterers, then you are cherry picking as much as anybody else is.

 

Going from one extreme to the other, left to right, up to down, flipping pascal's wager on you, not only who is right but what if you're wrong?

[T_O_Bull]

Kind of a weird thread title, I know. Since Ron Brown's thread has already or is in danger of turning into a debate about things not Ron Brown, here's an opportunity for any involved to continue the discussion (in a kind, patient and respectful manner). So, the question is:

 

1a.) What do you call yourself, from a faith perspective? Christian, evangelical, denominational Christian, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, etc. etc. etc.

 

1b.) How would you best describe what it is you believe? That is to say, what is your definition of what it takes to make claim of being a Christian, or being an atheist, or being Jewish, or whatever else.

 

 

 

And please, you guys, keep it kind.

 

I am Catholic. And this prayer says it all to what I believe. Nicene Creed

 

As far as how I try and live my life, I try and treat everyone with kindness and respect. Sometimes it is hard, but I try my best and ask the Lord to help me with that. I try not to judge, but sometimes catch myself falling into stereotypes. I try and keep an open mind about everyone. I have many friends who are atheist and one friend who is gay, but it does not bother me in the least bit. They are my friends and God put them into my life for a reason. I have no problems with their beliefs as long as they don't ridicule me for my beliefs, which has only happened once when we had been drinking. We just had a nice little religion discussion and that was that. Im proud of what I believe and nobody can take that from me. What about you?

 

Very well said PB.

 

T_O_B

[Landlord]

And the difference between us and Westboro is the way we live our lives. We live our lives by loving God with our whole heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors like ourselves (we try at least). They live full of hatred for everyone that isn't part of their cult. That is the difference. Has nothing to do with the Bible.

 

I think he's saying that you both read from the same book. But you both get (and preach) completely different things out of it. They choose to pick verses that fit their lifestyle as you choose verses that fit yours. You just happen interpret the Bible as containing a god that loves everyone. You focus on the Christ story and not on the vengeful god of the Old Testament. That you should thy neighbor and treat everyone as you would want to be treated...rather than kill those who don't obey god.

Westboro (and many other people...the Topeka clan just is more vocal about it) pick the parts of the Bible to help support their view. "God hates gay people because in Leviticus 20:13..."

 

You both believe in the same god. You both agree the Bible is god's word. But why don't you interpret the hate in the same way they do? And vice versa. Who's interpretation is right?

 

 

While it's a legitimate point, to an extent, the differences between Westboro and Christians are obvious, and based on common sense. Logic and reason have a role here, although people like to argue that you can't use them because they aren't definable. Reason tells me that Westboro Baptist members have an agenda of their own rather than of the Lord's, that their lives are nothing even remotely close to the way Jesus lived and commanded others to live, and seek to justify and explain away all of their actions, tailoring the Bible to themselves rather than tailoring their lives around the Bible (which isn't to say that most Christians don't do this).

You're making a claim to also know the Lord's will and that they don't, that's as arrogant as Westboro. You may say that they are wrong and tailoring it to themselves but I would believe that they hold to a more literal interpretation of the bible than you do, making them more valid just by keeping with its tenets.

 

Logic and reason can be used in this area but you're not going far enough. You didn't apply it to your own beliefs. Seriously, the last sentence you typed, is what you just did in regards to interpreting the bible. You might live your life as close to Jesus' philosophies as you can, but if you disregard the slavery of the OT, the killing of disobedient children and adulterers, then you are cherry picking as much as anybody else is.

 

Going from one extreme to the other, left to right, up to down, flipping pascal's wager on you, not only who is right but what if you're wrong?

 

 

In the case of the OT specifically, you would first have to establish what was recorded historically (not encouraged or accepted), what the culture influenced, what was demanded and what was done by God separate from what the law said for humans. I realize, even then, there is a lot of OT junk that would possibly support some generally frowned upon positions, but then you would also have to take into consideration Jesus' fulfillment of the law and NT scripture explaining how Christians are free from it.

 

I realize I'm equally as guilty of interpreting the Bible in my own way, just as everyone is, but the difference is that my deepest desire is to follow God's plan and standards, and Jesus' teachings. From a Biblical standpoint, if you want to reach you can use it to support what Westboro does, but from an obvious observational standpoint, that's not their deepest desire.

[huskerjack23]

And the difference between us and Westboro is the way we live our lives. We live our lives by loving God with our whole heart, soul and mind and love our neighbors like ourselves (we try at least). They live full of hatred for everyone that isn't part of their cult. That is the difference. Has nothing to do with the Bible.

 

I think he's saying that you both read from the same book. But you both get (and preach) completely different things out of it. They choose to pick verses that fit their lifestyle as you choose verses that fit yours. You just happen interpret the Bible as containing a god that loves everyone. You focus on the Christ story and not on the vengeful god of the Old Testament. That you should thy neighbor and treat everyone as you would want to be treated...rather than kill those who don't obey god.

Westboro (and many other people...the Topeka clan just is more vocal about it) pick the parts of the Bible to help support their view. "God hates gay people because in Leviticus 20:13..."

 

You both believe in the same god. You both agree the Bible is god's word. But why don't you interpret the hate in the same way they do? And vice versa. Who's interpretation is right?

 

 

While it's a legitimate point, to an extent, the differences between Westboro and Christians are obvious, and based on common sense. Logic and reason have a role here, although people like to argue that you can't use them because they aren't definable. Reason tells me that Westboro Baptist members have an agenda of their own rather than of the Lord's, that their lives are nothing even remotely close to the way Jesus lived and commanded others to live, and seek to justify and explain away all of their actions, tailoring the Bible to themselves rather than tailoring their lives around the Bible (which isn't to say that most Christians don't do this).

You're making a claim to also know the Lord's will and that they don't, that's as arrogant as Westboro. You may say that they are wrong and tailoring it to themselves but I would believe that they hold to a more literal interpretation of the bible than you do, making them more valid just by keeping with its tenets.

 

Logic and reason can be used in this area but you're not going far enough. You didn't apply it to your own beliefs. Seriously, the last sentence you typed, is what you just did in regards to interpreting the bible. You might live your life as close to Jesus' philosophies as you can, but if you disregard the slavery of the OT, the killing of disobedient children and adulterers, then you are cherry picking as much as anybody else is.

 

Going from one extreme to the other, left to right, up to down, flipping pascal's wager on you, not only who is right but what if you're wrong?

 

 

In the case of the OT specifically, you would first have to establish what was recorded historically (not encouraged or accepted), what the culture influenced, what was demanded and what was done by God separate from what the law said for humans. I realize, even then, there is a lot of OT junk that would possibly support some generally frowned upon positions, but then you would also have to take into consideration Jesus' fulfillment of the law and NT scripture explaining how Christians are free from it.

 

I realize I'm equally as guilty of interpreting the Bible in my own way, just as everyone is, but the difference is that my deepest desire is to follow God's plan and standards, and Jesus' teachings. From a Biblical standpoint, if you want to reach you can use it to support what Westboro does, but from an obvious observational standpoint, that's not their deepest desire.

 

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:17-19

 

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. - Mark 7:9-10

 

Tell me again how the OT is fulfilled again? Also, if the death and resurrection is why it has been fulfilled, are you just free to whatever just as long as you believe that Jesus is your savior? I submit that you have no knowledge if either option is correct and to preach one as correct BASED ON LOGIC AND REASON, is disingenuous and arrogant. You can preach on faith. But only faith. You have no evidence. Only conjecture based on your own moral subset.

 

I would counter to say that it's not obvious. Clearly they protest in front of funerals in order to troll sensible people into a lawsuit that they will inevitably win. But to say that they truly don't believe in their theology is misguided.

[Husker John]

[huskerjack23]

1a. Atheist (or more specifically, soft atheist or agnostic-atheist).

 

1b. Unfortunately for the second question, what I do believe can't be derived from the first, and is unrelated. All atheism is is 'not theism'. I arrived at the position through skepticism, and I consider myself a skeptic.

 

This is what I would best classify myself as right now as well.

 

Deconversion stories are always fun. PM me sometime.

I'd also like to hear that story. There's an old thread about the morality of faith that's just over a year old where knapplc gets pretty heated with husker_x about religion.

 

I'm interested because I feel my story is so universal, that any person who saw the milestones of introspection and self-awareness that I did, would make the same conclusions.

[Blaze1up]

Ask Captain Picard.

 

[Blaze1up]

Not a fan but Bill Maher making some sense. How can you have wars if your a religious person ?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ2SJSMWk7A

[HUSKER 37]

Not a fan but Bill Maher making some sense. How can you have wars if your a religious person ?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ2SJSMWk7A

 

 

Not sure we've ever had a proper war WithOUT Religion...And when did Maher start looking so much like Hugh Heffner?

[Landlord]

Not a fan but Bill Maher making some sense. How can you have wars if your a religious person ?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ2SJSMWk7A

 

Because we suck, mostly.

[The Maudfather]

I'm a little late to the party, but just finished reading the thread. Great thread. If there are any here that read my **Official Religious Debate Thread**, then you know that I was questioning my faith quite some time ago. After vigorously researching the issue and reading the vast majority of the bible (still reading it), I have decided that I do not believe in the Christian God.

 

I am an agnostic. I tend to think there is a higher being or a something that created us all, but, admittedly, this could just be a romantic thought. I was brought up a devout Christian for the first 18 years of my life, but as I got older and older I began to question, until eventually there was a thought stuck in the back of my mind that it don't believe. Thing is, I was afraid not to believe. As mentioned in this thread, I wondered how the God of love, an omnipotent God, could condemn one of his children (me) to hell, after he put me in the position to begin with. If God really loved me and wanted to save my soul, so I could have eternal happiness in heaven, then he would have given me more clarity. Since he is an all knowing and all powerful God that has a plan for my life, then why would he create me to not believe in him? Is it "God's will" that I be condemned to eternal torture?

 

Another thing I found an issue with is when I was questioning my faith was a cyclical argument. For example, I would ask one of my Christian friends, "how do I know the Bible is true?" The response was something to the effect of "Because it is God's word", to which I would respond "Well, how do I know that God is real?". The response, "Because the Bible says so".

 

I could go on and on and on and take up page after page, but I think Knapp summed it up best. If God truly wanted us to be with him in heaven, then he never would have thrown the tree of knowledge in the equation to begin with.

[carlfense]

Cynical.