Catholic Church Cont'd

[carlfense]

I am sure some people on here will have a different image of you if you run across a positive article on the Catholic church and post it.

Meh. People can think what they want. I'm not overly concerned about it.

[johnnyrodgers20]

I am sure some people on here will have a different image of you if you run across a positive article on the Catholic church and post it.

Meh. People can think what they want. I'm not overly concerned about it.

 

 

I totally agree with you, I have often said that I am not concerned at all what people on any BBS site thinks. But having said that and I may be wrong I feel you have a slanted view of the Catholic church. Not that my opinion carries any weight with you or your opinion.

[Husker_x]

Unlike religion, atheism is not a world view (note how I said atheism and not Johnnyrodgers20's 'aethism,' whatever that is). It has no tenants or doctrine. It has no statements of purpose or beliefs. There are no obligations to worship, tithe, or join a group. It is not a moral system and does not purport to answer moral questions. You can be an atheist and religious. You can be an atheist and spiritual. You can be like I am--an atheist and a skeptic/rationalist/humanist. Saying someone is an atheist is irrelevant to their character or ethical system. Therefore drawing direct lines between atheism and atrocity while ignoring the social/political factors is fallacious.

 

I'm willing to wager that somewhere approaching 100% of Nazis were a-unicornists. Is that why they murdered six million Jews?

 

This entire line of argumentation makes absolutely no sense. Stalin came to power in a culture who had been told for hundreds of years that the Czar was--oh hell, I'll let Hitch tell it:

 

 

I think it's also worth noting that the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century had access to technology far beyond what any of the religious monarchs and despots had in the thousands of years beforehand. The world's population was also greater during that time. You could say you have to adjust the death toll figures for inflation.

['SkersRule]

I'm not an atheist nor an agnostic. I believe in god. I just don't believe he's the benevolent, loving, caring, "heavenly father" christianity tries to portray. I think god is a brutal, sadistic, twisted, malevolent force who gets his spiritual jollies off of seeing people suffer.

[johnnyrodgers20]

Unlike religion, atheism is not a world view (note how I said atheism and not Johnnyrodgers20's 'aethism,' whatever that is). It has no tenants or doctrine. It has no statements of purpose or beliefs. There are no obligations to worship, tithe, or join a group. It is not a moral system and does not purport to answer moral questions. You can be an atheist and religious. You can be an atheist and spiritual. You can be like I am--an atheist and a skeptic/rationalist/humanist. Saying someone is an atheist is irrelevant to their character or ethical system. Therefore drawing direct lines between atheism and atrocity while ignoring the social/political factors is fallacious.

 

I'm willing to wager that somewhere approaching 100% of Nazis were a-unicornists. Is that why they murdered six million Jews?

 

This entire line of argumentation makes absolutely no sense. Stalin came to power in a culture who had been told for hundreds of years that the Czar was--oh hell, I'll let Hitch tell it:

 

 

I think it's also worth noting that the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century had access to technology far beyond what any of the religious monarchs and despots had in the thousands of years beforehand. The world's population was also greater during that time. You could say you have to adjust the death toll figures for inflation.

 

 

You may say all those things but the one constant with almost all the communist/aehtists are/were they were mass murdrers. And they persecuted religious freedoms and the freedom of the press. Another point is most of them set up brutal camps to imprison their dissidents!!

[Husker_x]

You may say all those things but the one constant with almost all the communist/aehtists are/were they were mass murdrers. And they persecuted religious freedoms and the freedom of the press. Another point is most of them set up brutal camps to imprison their dissidents!!

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one to realize this, but what you did in this post was characteristic. It's a simple four step process.

1. Make a claim.

2. Ignore every substantive point that challenges or refutes the substance of your claim.

3. Restate your claim without amending it.

4. Attach an emoticon to the post. I'm also sure I'm not the only one still trying to figure out the use of this step.

 

Your point is, once again, irrelevant. Atheists can be serial killers, mass murderers, psychopaths, or immoral just as easily as anyone else. The problem with your point is that there's nothing within atheism that accounts for this. There is no doctrine in atheism that says you have to be a mass murderer. There's nothing within atheism that even suggests this is a legitimate course of action. Atheism is a lack of belief in a God or gods, period. What you're attempting to do is draw a fallacious inference that in the absence of a divine moral author morality disappears. It doesn't. It hasn't. It isn't.

 

The fact of atheist mass murderers does not necessarily mean that atheism makes mass murderers, that all mass murderers are atheist, or that atheists are even more likely to be mass murderers. This entire branch of the religion vs. atheism discussion tree ignores the innumerable other factors that go into the subject of totalitarianism, genocide, and mass murder, not the least of which are the political motivations of the dictators who cause these atrocities. Like bennychico said, I'm no sooner going to blame atheism for Stalin's deplorable regime than his mustache. The one simply has nothing to do with the other.

 

What's even worse about this discussion thread is that it's all secondary. Even if it were true that atheism was directly linked to genocide, it would still have no bearing on whether or not a god existed. Your claims about Christianity would still be just as unsupported as they are now if an atheist dictator killed every last person on the planet except you and him.

[krill]

Unlike religion, atheism is not a world view (note how I said atheism and not Johnnyrodgers20's 'aethism,' whatever that is). It has no tenants or doctrine. It has no statements of purpose or beliefs. There are no obligations to worship, tithe, or join a group. It is not a moral system and does not purport to answer moral questions. You can be an atheist and religious. You can be an atheist and spiritual. You can be like I am--an atheist and a skeptic/rationalist/humanist. Saying someone is an atheist is irrelevant to their character or ethical system. Therefore drawing direct lines between atheism and atrocity while ignoring the social/political factors is fallacious.

 

I'm willing to wager that somewhere approaching 100% of Nazis were a-unicornists. Is that why they murdered six million Jews?

 

This entire line of argumentation makes absolutely no sense. Stalin came to power in a culture who had been told for hundreds of years that the Czar was--oh hell, I'll let Hitch tell it:

 

 

I think it's also worth noting that the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century had access to technology far beyond what any of the religious monarchs and despots had in the thousands of years beforehand. The world's population was also greater during that time. You could say you have to adjust the death toll figures for inflation.

 

 

You may say all those things but the one constant with almost all the communist/aehtists are/were they were mass murdrers. And they persecuted religious freedoms and the freedom of the press. Another point is most of them set up brutal camps to imprison their dissidents!!

 

That's a great point when you consider the religious freedom and freedom to print the Catholic church extended to Martin Luther and his followers. Thankfully reason prevailed and Europe was not sunk into centuries of pointless church sponsored wars, religious persecution, burning heretics, torturing nonbelievers, and general family fun.

[husker_99]

I'm not an atheist nor an agnostic. I believe in god. I just don't believe he's the benevolent, loving, caring, "heavenly father" christianity tries to portray. I think god is a brutal, sadistic, twisted, malevolent force who gets his spiritual jollies off of seeing people suffer.

 

Remember he loves the smell of burnt offerings! It pleases him. So i guess when we humans grill we are pleasing God.

[The Dude]

I'm not an atheist nor an agnostic. I believe in god. I just don't believe he's the benevolent, loving, caring, "heavenly father" christianity tries to portray. I think god is a brutal, sadistic, twisted, malevolent force who gets his spiritual jollies off of seeing people suffer.

Jesus is a softy though, because he's the recruiting coordinator.

[Husker_x]

I'm not an atheist nor an agnostic. I believe in god. I just don't believe he's the benevolent, loving, caring, "heavenly father" christianity tries to portray. I think god is a brutal, sadistic, twisted, malevolent force who gets his spiritual jollies off of seeing people suffer.

Jesus is a softy though, because he's the recruiting coordinator.

 

Really? Ask him what happens if you decide to play for another team.

['SkersRule]

I'm not an atheist nor an agnostic. I believe in god. I just don't believe he's the benevolent, loving, caring, "heavenly father" christianity tries to portray. I think god is a brutal, sadistic, twisted, malevolent force who gets his spiritual jollies off of seeing people suffer.

Jesus is a softy though, because he's the recruiting coordinator.

 

Really? Ask him what happens if you decide to play for another team.

 

You mean Jesus decapitates people and posts the video to YouTube?

[knapplc]

First off...neither Stalin nor Pol Pot committed their acts in the name of atheism. It's like saying because they had mustaches, all mustache wearing people are at fault!

Little is known about Stalin's beliefs, but most point to atheist because he killed a lot of the clergymen. However, he replaced them once he was finished. He wanted a church that answered to him and established the Russian Orthodox Church. He envisioned himself as a god. Religious beliefs, under Stalin's rule, were suppressed only out of jealousy and the need for power.

 

I haven't read the rest of this thread so please forgive me if this has been covered already.

 

First line - neither Stalin nor Pol Pot committed their acts in the name of atheism - agreed, but then, no priest raped a child "in the name of" Christianity. They exist in a hierarchy created to sustain itself, but that doesn't mean the hierarchy inherently condoned the acts (the acts are anathema to the professed belief of the hierarchy), nor does it mean that Christianity or Christians are at fault because of this. It's more of an indictment of the bureaucratic BS of the Catholic church than of the faith it is intended to serve.

 

Regarding your second line about mustaches - I wholeheartedly agree, but not in the way I think you intended. Because Catholic priests committed acts of barbarism against children does not indict all Catholics, nor does it indict all Catholic priests. Neither does the fact that Bishops and Cardinals were involved in the cover-up indict the whole Catholic church, or even all Bishops and/or Cardinals - or even the Pope (although, if they were aware and abetted the cover-up, that's retracted).

 

Many bad things have been done in the name of Jesus, the Church, Christianity, etc. But that doesn't mean that all of Christianity is bad. I can kill ten people using a baby bunny rabbit as a weapon - bunnies don't suddenly become bad because I misused one for this purpose, nor do people who love bunnies deserve to be pummeled over and over with my crime.

[carlfense]

It's more of an indictment of the bureaucratic BS of the Catholic church than of the faith it is intended to serve.

Thanks knapplc. That's my argument in a much more eloquent nutshell.

[johnnyrodgers20]

Unlike religion, atheism is not a world view (note how I said atheism and not Johnnyrodgers20's 'aethism,' whatever that is). It has no tenants or doctrine. It has no statements of purpose or beliefs. There are no obligations to worship, tithe, or join a group. It is not a moral system and does not purport to answer moral questions. You can be an atheist and religious. You can be an atheist and spiritual. You can be like I am--an atheist and a skeptic/rationalist/humanist. Saying someone is an atheist is irrelevant to their character or ethical system. Therefore drawing direct lines between atheism and atrocity while ignoring the social/political factors is fallacious.

 

I'm willing to wager that somewhere approaching 100% of Nazis were a-unicornists. Is that why they murdered six million Jews?

 

This entire line of argumentation makes absolutely no sense. Stalin came to power in a culture who had been told for hundreds of years that the Czar was--oh hell, I'll let Hitch tell it:

 

 

I think it's also worth noting that the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century had access to technology far beyond what any of the religious monarchs and despots had in the thousands of years beforehand. The world's population was also greater during that time. You could say you have to adjust the death toll figures for inflation.

 

 

You may say all those things but the one constant with almost all the communist/aehtists are/were they were mass murdrers. And they persecuted religious freedoms and the freedom of the press. Another point is most of them set up brutal camps to imprison their dissidents!!

 

That's a great point when you consider the religious freedom and freedom to print the Catholic church extended to Martin Luther and his followers. Thankfully reason prevailed and Europe was not sunk into centuries of pointless church sponsored wars, religious persecution, burning heretics, torturing nonbelievers, and general family fun.

 

 

The difference is that while there may have been some Leaders of the church who committed brutal crimes, it wasn't every leader. Point to one communist country that hasn't oppressed and murdered their people. The very first rule of communism is to oppress the church. The second one is to take over the press for their propoganda. I don't see many churchs having state run TV and radio. I haven't seen any gulags, prison camps, or dissident prisons in the church. You bring up things that have happened nearly 500 years ago. The church has changed over that time, I hope you know!!

[bennychico11]

I haven't read the rest of this thread so please forgive me if this has been covered already.

 

First line - neither Stalin nor Pol Pot committed their acts in the name of atheism - agreed, but then, no priest raped a child "in the name of" Christianity....

 

I hope it wasn't assumed that I meant that all of Christianity was at fault or that the priests did it in the name of their religion. I wasn't. And neither was carlfense. I was just trying to defend the claim from johnny that Stalin was an atheist and therefore atheists are the worst mass murderers.

Although, I will blame the individual priests who use their religion in order to take advantage of the children.