HuskerFanChuck Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 GSG - Yep. The numbers they showed for the last event, he and Hardee were close, way too close to make that up. Nice to have Gold and Silver both! And wow... Jamaicans sweeping the 200m. Quote Link to comment
GSG Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Fun Fact: Eaton's grandfather, James Eaton, played halfback at Michigan State. 1 Quote Link to comment
GSG Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 USA: Gold 39, Silver 25, Bronze 26, Total 90 China: Gold 37, Silver 23, Bronze 19, Total 79 GBR: Gold 24, Silver 13, Bronze 14, Total 51 Quote Link to comment
knapplc Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 If you find something that's racist, don't post it here. Haspula, that's for you. What are you thinking? Quote Link to comment
Haspula Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Showing how ignorant some Americans are... Quote Link to comment
GSG Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I just sent my Canadian buddy a screen shot of the medal comparison between USA and Canada Quote Link to comment
knapplc Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Showing how ignorant some Americans are... Yes, you were. Don't do it again. Quote Link to comment
zoogs Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised to find that little Chinese girl was doping or something. She posted a faster split than Lochte. That's more than a little fishy. She wasn't the only one to post a faster final leg split than Lochte. That was her race, saved up for the end where she really charged. It's an incredible achievement by a great athlete and it's a shame that the reaction has been one of suspicion. If it had been an unprecedented record set by an American athlete, she would rightfully be lauded for her accomplishment. Sorry, I'm a little late to this conversation. The reaction to that amazing swim was extremely disappointing. Quote Link to comment
knapplc Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 I wouldn't be surprised to find that little Chinese girl was doping or something. She posted a faster split than Lochte. That's more than a little fishy. She wasn't the only one to post a faster final leg split than Lochte. That was her race, saved up for the end where she really charged. It's an incredible achievement by a great athlete and it's a shame that the reaction has been one of suspicion. If it had been an unprecedented record set by an American athlete, she would rightfully be lauded for her accomplishment. Sorry, I'm a little late to this conversation. The reaction to that amazing swim was extremely disappointing. When seasoned pros who have been in the sport for decades intimate that something wasn't right about that race, I'm listening. Am I fully casting aspersions on her? No. But it's highly suspicious, and I don't think it's disappointing to voice that. Quote Link to comment
zoogs Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Was it a lot of seasoned pros, or was it mainly the US coach? (I am not sure on this ... ) In any case, I feel a lot of the specific criticism tossed around in the media has been shoddy. For example, her 7-second improvement in the event from 13 months ago to now. Is it extremely unusual for an athlete to be making strides from age 15, to age 16? And the suggestion that her faster split in the final lap than Lochte was very unusual. Lochte blew her out overall, by a full 23 seconds. She didn't come anywhere close to what Lochte did. As for his final 50, the fact that she beat him is a nice thing she can boast about, but it shouldn't be meaningful or eyebrow-raising. It's only a split, and Lochte eased up in the final two legs by his own admission, because "I kept looking at the scoreboard. I guess that slowed me down." He was on his way to challenging the WR before tailing off at the end. So, why should her charging finish be compared with a mediocre one from Lochte, just because his first 300-plus meters were superlative? I think that this article in Nature (link) is great for this discussion on a number of levels. I think the featured comment and Editor's response following the article are very worth reading. I think the takeaway, overall, is that number-crunching can be used as a great tool to characterize anomalous performances, but it's difficult to know where to draw the distinction between "anomalous and extraordinary" and "anomalous and too extraordinary." Every amazing performance is of course anomalous, or they would happen regularly. How many swimmers take 8 golds in one Olympics, as Phelps did? How many runners sweep the 100 and 200 in two consecutive Olympics, as Usain Bolt did (sometimes goofing off in the finishing stretches)? -in this case, I would say so far nothing other than casual, fairly careless and superficial numbers have come out for it, which makes it almost irresponsible, in my opinion, to claim any basis for characterizing the result as suspicious. I feel that super performances like these are what should be most celebrated in the Olympics, and they often are. But you're right that in this day and age, you can't help but acknowledge that tainting and cheating has been everywhere. More food for thought, from British former decathlete Dean Macey, on tossing around direct accusations purely on the basis of perforamnce: link Quote Link to comment
knapplc Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 If the Chinese didn't have a history of doping, I think it would be less controversial. Quote Link to comment
zoogs Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I see. This history of doping is unique to China. Sports, period, has an unfortunate history of doping. It's very sad, but it shouldn't really cast a pall over achievements without good cause. Should every US track athlete's achievements be cast in doubt because of doping by past US track stars such as Marion Jones? If that's not a fair basis for accusations, and the numbers aren't either, then where does that leave us? Quote Link to comment
knapplc Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 It's not just that she won, and it's not just that Chinese athletes have doped recently. It's how she won, in the manner she won, and the recent history of doping by not just Chinese athletes, but Chinese swimmers. I'm not saying she did dope. I'm saying it's reasonable to be suspicious. Quote Link to comment
zoogs Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I do think I have addressed serious holes in the arguments as to "the manner of her winning" being suspicious. I would be interested in hearing more counter-arguments on that side of things. John Leonard may have four decades of swimming experience, but it does not mean he has a good sense of numbers and magnitudes. Most people do not. He is not an expert at all in statistics, and yet he's making declarations as to what is statistically significant enough to be unbelievable. "But a woman does not out-swim the fastest man in the world in the back quarter of a 400m IM that is otherwise quite ordinary. It just doesn't happen." (link) I am not saying that the numbers in the end won't show her achievement to be highly, highly unprecedented. However, so far the numbers that have come out have not lived up to the billing of the accusations. Coach Leonard's comments, frankly, are all over the map and in no case does he offer anything of substance to support them. But if the suspicion is deserved, than those substantive supporting pieces are most welcome. Anyone is welcome to gather data of the best final 50-m women's 400 IM splits in history, or the best improvements for female swimmers in the 400-IM between the ages of 15 to 16 in history...for example. Quote Link to comment
huKSer Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 USA: Gold 39, Silver 25, Bronze 26, Total 90 China: Gold 37, Silver 23, Bronze 19, Total 79 GBR: Gold 24, Silver 13, Bronze 14, Total 51 3 pts 2 pts 1 pt USA = 193 CHN = 176 GBR = 112 Quote Link to comment
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