where are the critics now

[Huskrz65]

Nameless has said on more than one occasion that the option won't work because defenses are too fast.  That is what I disagree with.

So what you are saying is that other teams didn't "figure out" Nebraska and start making them one dimensional?

Take a team that runs the option, shut them down on the run, and you pretty much have made them one dimensional.

How many times during CU's 62-36 win did we see defenders from CU flood the line of scrimmage and pretty much shadow the option?

Miami did the same thing. Crouch was the only one really producing (if at all) during that game. Once the pitch man got the ball he was on his back.

I am basing this off of memory. I'd really love to watch those games again so I could be 'player specific' on my references.

[Utah_Husker]

Nameless has said on more than one occasion that the option won't work because defenses are too fast.  That is what I disagree with.

So what you are saying is that other teams didn't "figure out" Nebraska and start making them one dimensional?

Take a team that runs the option, shut them down on the run, and you pretty much have made them one dimensional.

How many times during CU's 62-36 win did we see defenders from CU flood the line of scrimmage and pretty much shadow the option?

Miami did the same thing. Crouch was the only one really producing (if at all) during that game. Once the pitch man got the ball he was on his back.

I am basing this off of memory. I'd really love to watch those games again so I could be 'player specific' on my references.

Um...do you realize we had over 550 yards of offense in the blowout at Colorado including almost 200 yards passing? Doesn't sound like Colorado had the option 'figured out' or we were one-dimensional. Again, the offense wasn't the problem that game. I'll agree we got shut down against Miami. But I maintain that was one of the greatest, fastest college football defenses of all time. They held their opponents to under 300 yards and 10 point per game. Their average margin of victory was more than 30 points. Saying Nebraska's option offense didn't work because they got shut down against Miami is like saying Florida's offense in '95 sucked and should be scrapped because they got blown out by us in the Fiesta bowl.

[NamelessHusker]

we DON'T have AP or VY because no one wants to play in the option .... done deal

 

option dead ...

 

 

Nameless ... your points are taken ...

If you're saying the option's dead because all of the best talent doesn't want to run it, then fine. I'm not arguing with that. In fact I agreed with people who have said that. Nameless has said on more than one occasion that the option won't work because defenses are too fast. That is what I disagree with.

That's not exactly all i said. I will repeat what i said. The option doesn't work IN THIS DAY AND AGE because of several points

 

 

Point 1: Teams are recruiting speed, speed and more speed. Did i mention speed? Speed is what has killed the option. pure and simple.

 

Point 2: No NFL teams runs an option, thus no recruit in his right mind who wants a career in the NFL is going to a school that runs a pure option and nothing else. Who was the last NU QB that ran an option and was recruited as QB and not for a different position?

 

Lord=DB with Houston

Crouch=Washed out as a WR/DB with St Louis and Green Bay Packers

Frost=DB

Tommie Fraizer= Was not drafted

 

Do i even need to start with WR's and TE's recruited? I think people can see where i am going with this particular point.

 

Point 3: Parity in college football means other smaller teams like Vandy, Rutgers, Baylor, Kansas, Fresno St have the ability to recruit like the big boys who can no longer stack talent upon talent upon talent who never see the field like Miami, FSU, Florida, NU, Tennessee, Michan and Ohio St all did in the 80's and 90's. That means teams like Kansas can now afford to bring in guys who won't be steamrolled by the large OLINEMAN you see with typical option teams.

 

There are other factors, but those are the major ones why option offense doesn't work as a full time offense. HELL i would be in support of seeing 5 maybe 6 option plays in the game if Callahan wanted to experiement with it. I have no problem with it. I can tolerate it in moderation. Its like when someone gives you water when you are thirsty. You take it in moderation, but drink to much of it and you drown yourself to death..LITERALLY

[IndyHusker]

sorry man i dont buy it.  one reason the pros dont run an option based attack has alot to do with $, those qbs cost alot and they dont want to have to pay them to ride the pine while theyre broke.

I am stumped when it comes to history of the AFL, so help me out here.

Let's rewind to 1960's.

Len Dawson- In his first season, 1962, Dawson had led the league in touchdowns and yards per attempt. He was the Sporting News selection as the AFL MVP for 1962. A pinpoint passer with four AFL passing titles, he went on to be selected an AFL All-Star six times, and holds the American Football League’s number one career passer rating.

 

Tom Flores- He became the team's starting quarterback early in the 1960 season and led the league by completing 54.0 percent of his passes, throwing for 1,738 yards and 12 touchdowns.

 

Jack Kemp- He led Buffalo to three straight Eastern Division titles and two American Football League championsips, in 1964 and 1965, throwing to Hall of Fame receivers Elbert Dubenion and Ernie Warlick. Kemp was the first 3,000 yard passer in the American Football League (1960, 14-game schedule)and the league's Most Valuable Player in 1965. He had the most career passes attempted, most completions and most yards gained passing in the history of the American Football League.

 

Daryle Lamonica - In his first year with the Raiders, he threw for 30 touchdowns and ran for four more. In 1969, he threw for 34 touchdowns and over 3,300 yards.

 

Joe Namath - Signed to the Jets team by Hall of Fame owner Sonny Werblin in 1965, Namath was the first pro quarterback to pass for 4,000 yards in a season (1967).

 

Vito Parilli - He played for the Patriots from 1961 through 1966, and was a three-time AFL All-Star. In 1964, throwing to fellow Hall of Famer Gino Cappelletti, he amassed nearly 3,500 yards passing, with 31 touchdowns.

 

So I am wondering if these QB's ran the option in college, then switched over to the passing game when they went pro due to the risk of injury?

 

Let's post a Husker Classic. The ONLY QB from Nebraska that I know of to get drafted to the Pro's, (as a QB.)

 

Vince Ferragamo- (born April 24, 1954 in Torrance, California) was an American football quarterback from the late 1970s through the mid-1980s. A University of Nebraska Cornhuskers graduate. He played for the Los Angeles Rams (1977-1980 and 1982-1984), Buffalo Bills (1985) and Green Bay Packers (1985-1986). He played in Super Bowl XIV. He also played for the Montreal Alouettes of the Canadian Football League for one year, 1981.

 

On December 26, 1982, Ferragamo threw for 509 yards in a game against the Chicago Bears, at the time the second highest passing mark in league history.

point about the qbs in the pros. is that they are investments, "race horses" for lack of a better term. college football has began to somewhat turn that way too. IMO intellegence or the ability to read and react is another reason the option isnt ran in the NFL, some people may call that speed or whatever, but the recognition of the play and not buying some of the fakes is what makes the option appear slow in the professional ranks.IMO

 

 

Point 2: No NFL teams runs an option, thus no recruit in his right mind who wants a career in the NFL is going to a school that runs a pure option and nothing else. Who was the last NU QB that ran an option and was recruited as QB and not for a different position

 

just going on memory, but wasnt Berringer????? may be wrong though

 

Huskrz65 Posted on Dec 2 2005, 02:37 PM

  QUOTE (Utah_Husker @ Dec 2 2005, 02:25 PM)

Nameless has said on more than one occasion that the option won't work because defenses are too fast.  That is what I disagree with. 

 

 

So what you are saying is that other teams didn't "figure out" Nebraska and start making them one dimensional?

Take a team that runs the option, shut them down on the run, and you pretty much have made them one dimensional.

How many times during CU's 62-36 win did we see defenders from CU flood the line of scrimmage and pretty much shadow the option?

Miami did the same thing. Crouch was the only one really producing (if at all) during that game. Once the pitch man got the ball he was on his back.

I am basing this off of memory. I'd really love to watch those games again so I could be 'player specific' on my references. 

 

in the past #1 TO ran more of a power running game complimented by the option, and FS did not IMO. #2 teams can be one dimensional when you cant stop them, previous teams didnt really care about being balanced , they just came right at you and dared you to stop them. #3 when they passed, it was usually very effective because the defense was so commited to stopping the run, so being one unbalanced can be an adavantage. IMO many of you are basing your ideas on what FS was running in his last few years and it was a shadow of what was ran during the 80's and 90's. everyone has their veiws and ideas, but i would put the 94' or 95' offense against any defense of today and almost promise a win. those teams both had the same bad rap of being too slow when they played miami and florida, could the option work against the speed of those defenses??? it did, still can with the proper personel. IMO not being able to recruit the proper personel, and higher quaility athletes into that type of system is why the option based offense has fallen out of favor in college football.

[Roy CO HSKR]

DJR313: I agree with some of your points. Certainly, I agree that the kids today don't want to play for an option team if they have desire and believe that they can make the NFL. Having said that, I suggest that you talk with any coach on a Div 1a club, and I think you will find that in their opinion the defensive speed and skill is today, too big a hurdle. Navy and Air force run it, but they are in quite a different situation.

 

If TO were coaching today he would probably have gone back to the days of his Ferragamo style offense. Not only because of the change in recruiting, but because it isn't as effective. I've seen the pros run a few option plays over the years and they bomb!

[HuskerWisdom]

DJR313: I agree with some of your points. Certainly, I agree that the kids today don't want to play for an option team if they have desire and believe that they can make the NFL. Having said that, I suggest that you talk with any coach on a Div 1a club, and I think you will find that in their opinion the defensive speed and skill is today, too big a hurdle. Navy and Air force run it, but they are in quite a different situation.

 

If TO were coaching today he would probably have gone back to the days of his Ferragamo style offense. Not only because of the change in recruiting, but because it isn't as effective. I've seen the pros run a few option plays over the years and they bomb!

Your analysis is that it isn't as effective because a few pro-style offenses have attempted to run an option once in a while as a "trick" play? Of course it fails, they don't run it as part of a system, and they don't run it enough to understand HOW to run it. Whether or not a couple of pro-offenses with requisite slow QB's and little or no practice at running the option are successful with it has little or no bearing on whether or not the option is a viable, effective system.

 

Someone will run the option again and will be quite successful when they realize that it is great at spreading the field and when people realize that not every team can have a future NFL qb every season.

[husker rob]

how do you think Vince Lombardi would have done with an option qb? i am not old enough to remember his teams but my father told me that ran a smash mouth run the ball offense and dared anyone to stop it.

 

but that was back in the days when a 250 lineman was a monster. now you have running backs that weigh that much and linemen that are 350 or more.

 

remember FS played as a fullback and didnt weigh more than 170 lbs

 

so what am i getting at with this? i dont know. maybe that the offenses are evolving with the size of the players.

 

I loved the days when Gill would take the snap, pivot and wait a second while the guard would pull and lead the way down the line then gill would follow or pitch the ball to rozier.

 

but i also like seeing 4 wideouts, and a one back set, taylor faking to ross to the left and going right on a naked bootleg and throwing to swift who is wide open for a 30 yard gain.

 

give me a good passing attack and a solid running game "balanced offense" and i will be happy and NU will win NC's again.

 

GBR RTO

[HuskerWisdom]

how do you think Vince Lombardi would have done with an option qb?  i am not old enough to remember his teams but my father told me that ran a smash mouth run the ball offense and dared anyone to stop it.

 

but that was back in the days when a 250 lineman was a monster.  now you have running backs that weigh that much and linemen that are 350 or more.

 

remember FS played as a fullback and didnt weigh more than 170 lbs

 

so what am i getting at with this?  i dont know.  maybe that the offenses are evolving with the size of the players. 

 

I loved the days when Gill would take the snap, pivot and wait a second while the guard would pull and lead the way down the line then gill would follow or pitch the ball to rozier.

 

but i also like seeing 4 wideouts, and a one back set, taylor faking to ross to the left and going right on a naked bootleg and throwing to swift who is wide open for a 30 yard gain.

 

give me a good passing attack and a solid running game "balanced offense"  and i will be happy and NU will win NC's again.

 

GBR RTO

Sure Lombardi ran smash mouth football, but then he would run a sweep to stretch the field side to side, or would run play action to the tight end over the middle, or would go long to the fast receivers he invariably had. NO offense can win consistently against good teams without making the safeties and LB's make difficult decisions about where they should be on the play.

 

The fundamental concepts and strategies in football have changed far less than many would like to admit. If you want to understand the WCO and where it came from (rather, I should say where the MANY variations of the WCO came from) look to Sid Gillman and the original pass-crazy offense for the LA/San Diego Chargers. Then look at the coaches who came from his system and went on to influence the league in so many ways.

 

And, anyway, we won with a power-running, option, play action pass offense in the 90's. Players of that time were really not that different from now, so the size of the players isn't a valid reason for saying that the option won't work.

 

In an off-topic note, I look at recruiting as the ability to bring valuable talent to your team. Unfortunately, location and other factors enter into the decision that recruits make. In my opinion, we will never be able to compete head-to-head with USC and Texas and the Florida schools for the same talent. We may win some battles, but overall, i believe they will win more often than we do. Quite simply, they are closer to where that talent resides, the weather favors them, as do the quality of their cheerleaders

 

That problem only exists when you attempt to recruit the SAME talent that the other teams want. When we ran a power running game with a mobile QB and the option, we didn't recruit the same players as Florida St or Florida and were able to beat them at their own game. If Callahan keeps us in the top ten or the top 15 in recruiting every year, I don't think that will be enough to get us to beat the USC's if we play the same system and go after the same players as them. That can get us in the ballpark, but we still need to develop our own, reliable and significant competitive advantages if we are going to win national titles - and that goes a lot further than just having a balanced running/passing game.

[huskerstag]

Someone will run the option again and will be quite successful when they realize that it is great at spreading the field and when people realize that not every team can have a future NFL qb every season.

 

I can see the SPREAD option attack being successful in the college ranks, as in Utah and now Florida among several other teams, but athletes with quick feet and even quicker decision making skills who can also throw a nice ball are tough to find. However, in the pros that changes significantly because protecting the qb is much more difficult. Spurrier tried to run his version of a spread offense, not the option but still five wide, and couldn't keep his qb's from getting drilled.

 

I agree with the statement that speed has/will kill the traditional option attack because it wasn't that good at spreading the field. The key to stopping the option has always been getting the safeties in the right position. With linebackers that run like defensive backs executing the option becomes even more difficult because the qb is then forced to pitch and the safety takes the pitch man. On top of that, with faster safeties they can play closer to the line, a la 8 men in the box, and still recover into a passing lane, so the safeties are more likely to be in position to stop the pitch.

 

Its true that with excellent execution and play calling the option could work, but imo its more difficult to implement than ever before for the above reasons. I would also take the offenses of the mid 90's against any defense today, but IMO those teams were anomalies because of the extraordinary amount of talent in the backfield and on the o-line, coupled with tons of coaching experience and talent. Collections of talent like that are probably once in a lifetime or at least once every couple of decades and with recruiting today and more money being put into more programs its even less likely to occur. A traditional option attack, while not dead, is probably tought to implement and be successful with than other forms of offense.

[husker rob]

an option qb is nothing more than a extra running back in the back field that has the ability to trow the ball every once in a while.

[indianahusker]

I think any offense will work. You have to have superior athletes and coaching. Florida thought they did in '95. Tennessee thought they had it in '97. They didn't!

[formerfan]

In an off-topic note, I look at recruiting as the ability to bring valuable talent to your team. Unfortunately, location and other factors enter into the decision that recruits make. In my opinion, we will never be able to compete head-to-head with USC and Texas and the Florida schools for the same talent. We may win some battles, but overall, i believe they will win more often than we do. Quite simply, they are closer to where that talent resides, the weather favors them, as do the quality of their cheerleaders

 

That problem only exists when you attempt to recruit the SAME talent that the other teams want. When we ran a power running game with a mobile QB and the option, we didn't recruit the same players as Florida St or Florida and were able to beat them at their own game. If Callahan keeps us in the top ten or the top 15 in recruiting every year, I don't think that will be enough to get us to beat the USC's if we play the same system and go after the same players as them. That can get us in the ballpark, but we still need to develop our own, reliable and significant competitive advantages if we are going to win national titles - and that goes a lot further than just having a balanced running/passing game.

Great points!!

 

I agree with the statement that speed has/will kill the traditional option attack because it wasn't that good at spreading the field. The key to stopping the option has always been getting the safeties in the right position. With linebackers that run like defensive backs executing the option becomes even more difficult because the qb is then forced to pitch and the safety takes the pitch man. On top of that, with faster safeties they can play closer to the line, a la 8 men in the box, and still recover into a passing lane, so the safeties are more likely to be in position to stop the pitch.

While this is true, it is also true that speed can kill a passing/pro style offense. Look at when NU was dominating (90s). They had speedy(not big), lockdown CBs, fast safetys, OLBs that ran like safetys, and DEs that ran like OLBs. They shut down MANY passing style offenses. People point to the 02 RoseBowl as the day the option died. Like others have pointed out, that Miami team shut down pretty much everyone they played that year, passsing and running offenses both. Speed kills both offensive styles. Thats the main reason why the current NU D is not as good as past Ds, and judging by the types of players that the coaches are getting, probably never will be again.

[StuckinChicago]

Really former? Smaller equals better right? How about bigger and faster? Does that work? Bowman is the fastest player on the team, Bullucks has NFL speed, McKeon played safety in high school, Moore ran a 4.6, and is our RUN STUFFER at open end. Issues with Tiedtke, but then again I could say the same about Pat Ricketts. Carriker leads the team in sacks, and is probably the slowest for his position in the starting lineup. Ickes is appartanly the fastest linebacker on the team, even faster than Octavien, according to his teammates. Our DT's havent been small since the 80's, so dont kid yourself there. Grixby is one of those small guys you love to talk about. A guy we just recruited ran a 4.37 as timed by the coaches on the Nebraska team at their camp. Andre Jones ran an electronically timed 4.47. Corey Young, another target, ran a 4.39. Pierre Allen, a DE, runs a 4.6. Allen Bradford runs a 4.49, and is only 5'10'', another "small guy". How about recruits from last year? Dillard runs a 4.6, lost weight, and got down to a 4.5. Bowman is spoken for. Jackson, I wont even go there. Just because a guy plays DE at 280 pounds doesnt mean he cant lead the big twelve in sacks, despite being doubled on every play. Saying that the type of athlete that Callahan is bringing in can not make a great defense, or that they are so much slower than the defenses of old really shows a lack of knowledge on your point.

 

P.S. Covey runs a 4.5

[formerfan]

Saying that the type of athlete that Callahan is bringing in can not make a great defense, or that they are so much slower than the defenses of old really shows a lack of knowledge on your point.

 

Have you bothered to watch any games from the past 2 years??? If so, do you think that the last 2 teams look anywhere remotely close to what we saw in the 90's??? Can you honestly say that?? Or do you not remember how dominant and fast those teams were. Those teams were all over the field, not just one guy, but 11 guys on every single play.

 

There is no comparision whatsoever.

[StuckinChicago]

Wow, did you even read my post, even the part that you quoted? I never said that this year's defense is as good as our ones from the 90's. I simply refuted your claim that the type of athlete that Callahan is recruiting is slow and overweight, and pointed out that the prime example of slow and overweight on this year's defense, who is Adam Carriker, leads the big twelve in sacks. Barry Turner is small and runs a 4.5 as well, i forgot to add that one. Dont make blanket statements about how everyone that Callahan plays and is bringing in is overweight and slow without looking up the facts first. Your wrong. Deal with it. The issue on defense may reside in scheme or injuries, or even just not quite having the talent we need, I dont know, but I do know that the defense has plenty of fast players on it, and saying that Callahan is bringing in slow, overweight athletes is a bald faced lie. You got caught, its ok, move on.