Global Warming

[BigRedBuster]

Wow...you really had to work to twist my words around that much.

[carlfense]

Wow...you really had to work to twist my words around that much.

No work at all.

 

I guess your lack of protesting shows that my memory wasn't mistaken?

[BigRedBuster]

So you are really going back to what you always do in threads on this instead of actually discussing the subject? You must not have much to say on the subject.

[strigori]

Your chart is impressive. But, they are our largest foreign owner of our debt. Even though they appear to own a small part, they hold a certain level of power over us. Sad but true. Our countries are very sadly tied very tightly together.

 

LINK

 

You are correct, China needs our markets. BUT, my proposal would eliminate their competitiveness in our markets and drastically shrink what they would be importing to the US. That would be a HUGE threat to their economy and they could take drastic measures to secure their future.

 

Contrary to popular belief, companies DON"T WANT to deal with having stuff made in China and imported to the US. It is literally a pain in the azz. So, if the competitive advantage to doing it is eliminated, that manufacturing is brought back to the US.

 

That destroys the Chinese side of the relationship that is "too big to fail" as described in this article. If China no longer has this an advantage in this market, they have no reason to support it with their debt.

All of that is why American politicians are scared to death to threaten China's economy with trade restrictions.

 

 

 

 

I would answer them by saying I want clean air and water and a high wage also. BUT, a company can not compete with that if the playing field is not level. Right now we have probably the strictest labor and environmental laws combined as any country in the world. I'm not for relaxing them. I AM for forcing other countries to play by the same rules if they want to import their products to our market.

Maybe some companies. But others don't give a rip where its made as long as they make more money. As the prevailing attitude is that unless a business makes 5% or more money than the year before, then they are failing and going to go out of business.

 

I would be all for having importation laws that require all imports to meet the same standards as American made products. But that still does not fix the labor costs. $15 an hour vs less than $1 an hour, and no benefits, 401k or OSHA working standards.

 

I still think that changing American's buying habits and attitudes to simply not buying cheap Chinese crap is a faster method of change. The production cost difference wouldn't matter if it all remained sitting on shelves. Wal-mart and 'dollar stores' are prime examples of businesses that have damaged our economy.

[BigRedBuster]

Strigori:

 

Just like in any group, there is a mixture of why they do what they do.

 

But, from my experience, here is the general path this goes.

 

1) An industry is predominately American made.

2) One or two competitors can't compete with quality products or service so the only thing left is competing on price.

3) They sell their soul to China so they can import products much cheaper than the American competitors.

4) The American public sees this and gets all excited that they can get XYZ product dirt cheap and start buying that product.

5) The American made products lose market share and start losing money because they can't cut prices any more while manufacturing in the US.

6) It is either go out of business or move their manufacturing to China also.

 

Now, admittedly that is a generalization and any one industry can deviate from that somewhat. But, in my example, the first few companies that start buying from China screw the rest of the industry.

 

And, you are right, labor and the related costs of OSHA and benefits are a problem. I'm advocating doing the same as far as wages and worker safety as I am with environmental regulations.

 

There are also many industries that are not labor intensive and the above example of the steel industry is an example of that. In the report I posted it states that the environmental regulation costs are more of a factor in that industry than the labor issues.

 

Also, I have absolutely no confidence in the American public caring about American made. Now, I'm talking the majority. Sure you can find some people who care. But, on average, the American consumer doesn't care as long as they can buy something cheaper.

[gobiggergoredder]

As the prevailing attitude is that unless a business makes 5% or more money than the year before, then they are failing and going to go out of business.

 

This statement alone indicates you have no idea what you are talking about. Show me a company that is satisfied with 5% OP and I will show you a sub average organization. I will guarantee you that if a manufacturing facility in consistent returning 5% OP, they unit will be closed, sold or outsourced in the near future. A corporation can invest money and get more than 5%. I've work for three huge manufacturing companies and it is no different at any of them.

 

Why would any person or organization be satisfied with a 5% return? You put your money somewhere else.

[gobiggergoredder]

 

Also, I have absolutely no confidence in the American public caring about American made. Now, I'm talking the majority. Sure you can find some people who care. But, on average, the American consumer doesn't care as long as they can buy something cheaper.

 

I agree with this 100%. If the public demanded American made, manufacturers/distributors/retailers would line up to get their hands on a piece of the pie. We knowingly buy a piece of crap because it is cheaper.

 

You want a real life example....go to any Harbor Freight.

[carlfense]

So you are really going back to what you always do in threads on this instead of actually discussing the subject? You must not have much to say on the subject.

Interesting stance considering the fact that I made the original post.

[carlfense]

I agree with this 100%. If the public demanded American made, manufacturers/distributors/retailers would line up to get their hands on a piece of the pie. We knowingly buy a piece of crap because it is cheaper.

 

You want a real life example....go to any Harbor Freight.

Is it even possible to buy power tools made in the United States?

 

I don't buy anything but DeWalt for power tools (I have too many 18V batteries lying around to do otherwise) but even they are imported.

 

Hand tools . . . sure . . . but I can't think of any major power tool manufacturers still offering products made in the US.

[sd'sker]

 

Also, I have absolutely no confidence in the American public caring about American made. Now, I'm talking the majority. Sure you can find some people who care. But, on average, the American consumer doesn't care as long as they can buy something cheaper.

 

I agree with this 100%. If the public demanded American made, manufacturers/distributors/retailers would line up to get their hands on a piece of the pie. We knowingly buy a piece of crap because it is cheaper.

 

You want a real life example....go to any Harbor Freight.

our throwaway culture is a bummer.

[strigori]

As the prevailing attitude is that unless a business makes 5% or more money than the year before, then they are failing and going to go out of business.

 

This statement alone indicates you have no idea what you are talking about. Show me a company that is satisfied with 5% OP and I will show you a sub average organization. I will guarantee you that if a manufacturing facility in consistent returning 5% OP, they unit will be closed, sold or outsourced in the near future. A corporation can invest money and get more than 5%. I've work for three huge manufacturing companies and it is no different at any of them.

 

Why would any person or organization be satisfied with a 5% return? You put your money somewhere else.

I have worked for some actually that were on a 5-8% growth plan, but also privately held.

 

I think you have inadvertently given the problem with just about everything though. More, more, more, gimme gimme gimme.

F the companies. F the stock holders. Have the employees not , unless they are in the corporate office, even getting 5%? Nope. They are getting nothing, or pay cuts, benefit cuts, longer hours, more work, more stress. So the stock price will go up a little bit.

 

The stock market is little more than a cancer for the vast majority of people on this planet.

[gobiggergoredder]

I have worked for some actually that were on a 5-8% growth plan, but also privately held.

 

I think you have inadvertently given the problem with just about everything though. More, more, more, gimme gimme gimme.

F the companies. F the stock holders. Have the employees not , unless they are in the corporate office, even getting 5%? Nope. They are getting nothing, or pay cuts, benefit cuts, longer hours, more work, more stress. So the stock price will go up a little bit.

 

The stock market is little more than a cancer for the vast majority of people on this planet.

 

This is all great banter for your next occupy wall street rally, but I'm talking about the real world. I don't really disagree with you about the stock market, but you're going to have to put down the rally sign. I will explain it to you the way it was explained to me in two different organizations. Then you can take it off to left field or change the subject.

 

All 3 of the manufacturing corporations that I have worked for have 65K+ employees and numerous sites around the world. Each manufacturing site is really no different than a savings account, mutual fund, ponzi scheme, yada yada. The manufacturing site takes the corporations money and sells a product. From that they receive a profit. There are a lot of risks associated in manufacturing a product. The include, but are not limited to: lawsuits, rising material costs, rising benefits costs, foreign competition, market changes..etc.

 

The corporation has to make a decision at some point. Should we pump $100M into this facility for overhead, materials and labor to get back 5% when we can do that via wall street and/or banking with reduced risk? The answer is no.

 

Now back to my opinion. The problem has already been identified several times throughout this thread. It is not a level playing field an we need to figure out how to bring American manufacturing back. We have no jobs for intelligent people with a high school diploma or GED. These people have gone from reasonable jobs with great benefits to fighting to survive at Subway. We don't buy/request/want American products. We allow our politicians and lobbyist to whore us out to the highest Chinese bidder. Tariff the hell out of the Chinese crap.

[strigori]

Tariffs are something I'm for,but getting it done is harder. Too many treaties signed to limit it.

I think a real easy way to start is require very large county of manufacture labels on everything. We list it now, but its often almost completely hidden, or out of plain sight. Especially on brands that used to be American Icons. Its on the bottom of heavy items, in small print on the back of a tag on a shirt.

 

I'm convinced you would see some level of shift to the American made products if you have to items side by side. One Made in USA the other Made in China, I think many people would pay a little more for it.

 

ABC News had a number on their nightly news that was something to the effect if every American spend $64 on American made items this Christmas it would create 200k jobs.

 

On a related tangent, with the no good jobs for those without college degrees, part of the problem is that many companies want A college degree, and they don't care what its in. That needs to stop. Its putting a qualifier on job that does not indicate if the person is going to have any ability at said job.

[gobiggergoredder]

Tariffs are something I'm for,but getting it done is harder. Too many treaties signed to limit it.

I think a real easy way to start is require very large county of manufacture labels on everything. We list it now, but its often almost completely hidden, or out of plain sight. Especially on brands that used to be American Icons. Its on the bottom of heavy items, in small print on the back of a tag on a shirt.

 

I'm convinced you would see some level of shift to the American made products if you have to items side by side. One Made in USA the other Made in China, I think many people would pay a little more for it.

 

ABC News had a number on their nightly news that was something to the effect if every American spend $64 on American made items this Christmas it would create 200k jobs.

 

On a related tangent, with the no good jobs for those without college degrees, part of the problem is that many companies want A college degree, and they don't care what its in. That needs to stop. Its putting a qualifier on job that does not indicate if the person is going to have any ability at said job.

 

There is a first time for everything.....That being said, I agree with everything you posted.

[Junior]

http://www.nature.com/news/global-carbon-dioxide-levels-near-worrisome-milestone-1.12900

 

 

Near the moonscape summit of the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii, an infrared analyser will soon make history. Sometime in the next month, it is expected to record a daily concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of more than 400 parts per million (p.p.m.), a value not reached at this key surveillance point for a few million years.

 

There will be no balloons or noisemakers to celebrate the event. Researchers who monitor greenhouse gases will regard it more as a disturbing marker of humanity’s power to alter the chemistry of the atmosphere and by extension, the climate of the planet. At 400 p.p.m., nations will have a difficult time keeping global warming in check, says Corinne Le Quéré, a climate researcher at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, UK, who says that the impact “is getting very dangerously close to reaching the 2 °C target that governments around the world have pledged not to exceed”.

 

...

When monitoring started, the CO₂level stood at 316 p.p.m., not much higher than the 280 p.p.m. that characterized conditions before the industrial revolution. But since the Hawaiian measurements began, the values have followed an upward slope that shows no sign of levelling off (see ‘On the rise’). Emissions of other greenhouse gases are also increasing, pushing the total equivalent concentration of CO₂ in the atmosphere to around 478 p.p.m. in April, according to Ronald Prinn, an atmospheric scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge.

 

Data compiled by Le Quéré and other members of the Global Carbon Project suggest that humans contributed around 10.4 billion tonnes of carbon into the atmosphere in 2011. About half of that is taken up each year by carbon ‘sinks’ such as the ocean and vegetation on land; the rest remains in the atmosphere and raises the global concentration of CO₂.

 

Whether or not people want to believe it, it is happening. It's long past the time when we should have been doing something about it. But hey, let's just drill for more oil, that'll help.