StPaulHusker Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I don't care that more people are choosing not to believe. More room for me when I get to the pearly gates. Link to comment
Bigred_inSD Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 If there is a heaven and a bigger IF I am somehow allowed in ( they obviously didn't do near enough research) if heaven is perfect place to be, my idea is much different than other people. Example A,Water fountains where you choose between PBR and Sam Adams Oktoberfest Link to comment
Scratchtown Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I don't care that more people are choosing not to believe. More room for me when I get to the pearly gates. Narrow is the gate that leads to eternity. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Link to comment
zoogs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 How do you guys square with the idea that not being Christian is a dark path that leads to destruction? That everyone in history who was not taught to believe in your God is doomed to be denied access to the exclusive club of heaven, no matter how they lived their own lives? That seems like the implication here, and I apologize if I am misunderstanding. I mean, there's a lot of good people, surely, covered in that list. A big tenet of Christianity as I have understood it has always been about loving your fellow man. There's something not very loving or accepting about saying, "I deserve heaven and these people [in this case the millions of Americans cited in the survey] do not." Personally, I think that if there is a God, and if he is particular enough to create an in/out gate to paradise for his human creations, the last thing he will care about, of all their mortal thoughts and deeds, is whether someone believed in him or not. If he has created a heaven, there will be plenty of time to bring folks up to speed. An eternity, even. Link to comment
Scratchtown Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 How do you guys square with the idea that not being Christian is a dark path that leads to destruction? That everyone in history who was not taught to believe in your God is doomed to be denied access to the exclusive club of heaven, no matter how they lived their own lives? That seems like the implication here, and I apologize if I am misunderstanding. I mean, there's a lot of good people, surely, covered in that list. A big tenet of Christianity as I have understood it has always been about loving your fellow man. There's something not very loving or accepting about saying, "I deserve heaven and these people [in this case the millions of Americans cited in the survey] do not." Personally, I think that if there is a God, and if he is particular enough to create an in/out gate to paradise for his human creations, the last thing he will care about, of all their mortal thoughts and deeds, is whether someone believed in him or not. If he has created a heaven, there will be plenty of time to bring folks up to speed. An eternity, even. It's not that we are square with it. It's rather unfortunate. But it's cited in the Bible. It's not that we say it's that way, Jesus (God) said it is that way. Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Link to comment
zoogs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You would find little disagreement that for all the people in the world, it is not easy to find the road to say, being the best person you can be, and many don't find it. But does that specifically mean "many" as in non-believers, and "few" as in believers? Link to comment
Scratchtown Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You would find little disagreement that for all the people in the world, it is not easy to find the road to say, being the best person you can be, and many don't find it. But does that specifically mean "many" as in non-believers, and "few" as in believers? I would say that it means if one is a believer of "Jesus Christ as God in the Flesh and that he died a sinless death to save humanity from eternal separation from God and rose from the dead 3 days later to ascend into Heaven" that is a believer and to further that I believe works upon that faith are required too. Nutshell. Christ followers get in. Everyone else doesn't. That is how I've interpreted it, yet, as disclaimer I will say that I'm not God so I don't ultimately know who is and who isn't getting into Heaven. Generally I feel like the Bible answers these questions rather clearly. Link to comment
Landlord Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 How do you guys square with the idea that not being Christian is a dark path that leads to destruction? That everyone in history who was not taught to believe in your God is doomed to be denied access to the exclusive club of heaven, no matter how they lived their own lives? That seems like the implication here, and I apologize if I am misunderstanding. I mean, there's a lot of good people, surely, covered in that list. A big tenet of Christianity as I have understood it has always been about loving your fellow man. There's something not very loving or accepting about saying, "I deserve heaven and these people [in this case the millions of Americans cited in the survey] do not." Personally, I think that if there is a God, and if he is particular enough to create an in/out gate to paradise for his human creations, the last thing he will care about, of all their mortal thoughts and deeds, is whether someone believed in him or not. If he has created a heaven, there will be plenty of time to bring folks up to speed. An eternity, even. I think you have a slight, but understandable, misunderstanding of that tenet. It's not that I deserve heaven. Or any of my fellow brothers or sisters do. In fact, the Bible is marked with the greatest heroes generally being pretty depraved people - Noah was a drunk, David was a murderer and adulterer, Paul was a murderer and the leader against the original church, Rahab was a prostitute, etc. Yes, there are theological realities surrounding the idea of being regenerated into new creations via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but the only distinction between those in and out is that we've accepted a free gift. It's not as if God created arbitrary hoops to jump through just for the sake of it. It's more that we're naturally headed towards a certain end conclusion, God doesn't want us there, so He's like, "Hey. Here's the way out." But he doesn't force us to take it, but accepting a gift requires believing that exists, which requires believing in the conditions through which it is offered, and also believing in the giver. Link to comment
zoogs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Well, that is a nicer way to phrase it. I don't think it affects the reality of what is being said, however -- that unless you opt in (in a specific manner), you will miss out. It's not as if God created arbitrary hoops to jump through just for the sake of it. God doesn't want us there, so He's like, "Hey. Here's the way out." But he doesn't force us to take it, but accepting a gift requires believing that exists, which requires believing in the conditions through which it is offered, and also believing in the giver. These are arbitrary requirements that come with an offer of his own design. Why are these the requirements he chose? Link to comment
Landlord Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Well, that is a nicer way to phrase it. I don't think it affects the reality of what is being said, however -- that unless you opt in (in a specific manner), you will miss out. It's not as if God created arbitrary hoops to jump through just for the sake of it. God doesn't want us there, so He's like, "Hey. Here's the way out." But he doesn't force us to take it, but accepting a gift requires believing that exists, which requires believing in the conditions through which it is offered, and also believing in the giver. These are arbitrary requirements that come with an offer of his own design. Why are these the requirements he chose? Because reason is a law of the universe. Try to make it tangible in a different context. If you offer your child a candy bar, they'll accept it. The reason they will accept it is because they believe that A) the candy bar is good and pleasant B) You are a real person offering a real gift C) You care about them. If, for some reason, your child didn't believe that you existed, then they would never accept something from you, because they would never be aware of you offering something in the first place. tldr; you can't accept something you don't believe in. Link to comment
zoogs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Except humans do not travel to Heaven themselves. They are, as I understand it, either taken there or left out, and that determination is made by God's designed rules. To counter your example, your child is told by another child that there is an awesome being who will give them a candy bar after they go to sleep. In order to receive this candy bar, they must believe in this awesome being, and its teachings. And in the candy bar. The child will never see the candy bar before sleeping, nor will they eat it in their waking life. But it will be incredible. The other children around them? The ones who do not accept this? They won't get the candy bar. And it will suck. Alternative explanation: assume the existence of a God, who at least at one point attempted to prescribe his teachings to Man among his creations. Man immediately distorts this message - as is Man's way - into one whose foundation is about perpetuating and consolidating a social identity. To do this he uses the classic, well-known, and very human tools at his disposal. Promises of good, warnings against bad, the allure of a strong community of like-identifiers, the offer of feeling exceptional (particularly against the greatest and realest threat Man has always faced -- the Others), and occasionally throughout history, coercion by domination, violent or otherwise. And so it is that something very primal and innate in our social natures is reinforced: that the most fundamental distinction is not the content of one's character or the sum of one's deeds in life, but one's choice of identity and affiliation. Most strikingly, it is not even about one's spirituality or theism, but about becoming wholly part of one human group over all others (followers of Christ, in this particular example in our particular place in history). That, to me, sounds like a human thing. Not a God thing. 1 Link to comment
AR Husker Fan Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 One has to wonder just what kind of psychological problems are floating around in God's head that he demands adulation and worship. The insecurities he must have... 2 Link to comment
Scratchtown Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 One has to wonder just what kind of psychological problems are floating around in God's head that he demands adulation and worship. The insecurities he must have... Uhh..... Link to comment
Landlord Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 zoogs, your counter example hinges on the idea that the end goal of Christianity is heaven access. Which makes sense, because most Christians think the same way, but Jesus didn't teach that he was a ticket to the destination, but that he was the destination itself, in this life and in the next. The teachings of Christ are just as much about here and now, living life abundantly, loving God and loving others, and 'your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven' as they were about the afterlife. More so, in fact. Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain. Paul literally couldn't decide between the two, each having their own wonderful merits and purpose in his life to be weighed equally. I don't think that way, but I want to. Again. I very much do not see Christian faith as arbitrary "you have to do this" dogma. I see it as, I have found something I believe in, and doing x, y and z have been natural byproducts and reactions to that belief. You don't cheat on your wife not because she says, "You have to be faithful to me", you don't cheat on your wife because loving her naturally concludes itself with you acting in ways that are loving to her. Link to comment
Scratchtown Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Well said LOMS. "Works" are the natural byproduct of the faith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uOqXPvyhW4&list=PLVZ--7p0XdAWgWDepVZi-LiSEKFNEmhzx This video of Matt Chandler was the first part to his study on the book of James. The whole study is based on the Faith with Works idea. Link to comment
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