Which is a more likely explanation for creation?

[knapplc]

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

[zoogs]

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

What?

[Red Dead Redemption]

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

What?

Let him be. I really think he's on to something here. ..

[JJ Husker]

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

Probably going to have to let this one go. You're apparently unwilling or unable to look at it in the same manner that I do. I'm not hedging my bet. If anything, I am hedging the bet for other people. I know for a fact that God was the cause. Don't ask me to prove it or explain it any further. It is a deeply held belief of mine based on my cumulative experiences. The one God creator does not have to be the specific of any one religion. You think he does yet you don't believe in him. I find it somewhat amusing that a self professed non-believer feels compelled to tell others how they need to believe and what's what with that belief. You tried it for years, attending church, leading Bible studies, etc. and you failed at it. Somewhere along the way you adopted some thoughts or beliefs that preclude you from looking at it in the same manner I do and now you actually think you've got it right and I and others have it wrong.

 

I can't look at this natural world and think there was not an intelligent designer. Quite frankly, I don't understand how others can. IMO, belief in a creator, one creator is easy and almost unavoidable. And that belief has nothing to do with any specific God or any specific religion. Once a person accepts that there must have been a first cause, then yes, we will attempt to explain that first cause as best we can and that is where different interpretations of God and the multitude of religions come from. Have you ever wondered why people forever have felt compelled to explain his existence. Maybe it's not as simple as the non-believers like to claim it is. Maybe it's not just pushing the easy button for things we haven't fully figured out. Maybe we do have a soul and maybe there is something in it compelling us to find God. At least that seems a lot more likely to me than a few cells crawling out of the pond and here we are today having these in depth discussions but yet having absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. Many did believe at one time but became angry with God for one reason or another. Usually due to the death or suffering of someone close to them. Those are hard things to deal with and some people bail out because they can't justify those things with a loving father figure of God. They take their human limited thoughts and try to understand why a loving father would let these things happen. They think, it could be so easy if he would just do this or that or the other thing. I've just come to accept that God did not intend for it to be that easy. Sure it would be easy if he would show up weekly, 4000 feet tall riding a cloud and talk to us. If he would remove all pain and suffering from our lives. If he'd just come sit down in our living rooms and explain it all to us in person. That seems to be what so many nonbelievers think should happen. I'm just not arrogant enough to think I know better than an all powerful God and I can accept his existence even with the limits that are in place.

[funhusker]

 

I find it funny when non-believers say its the easy way out to believe in God. Is there anything harder to believe in and try to explain to people? I havent found anything harder to do than keeping faith in a higher power. I'd say not believing is much easier. Nothing to worry about or expect to answer for. Thats easy.

 

I'd say they're equally easy depending on your point of view and your nature and what happens to you.

 

It's easy to believe in God if you don't suffer horrible tragedy.

It's hard to believe in God if you suffer horrible tragedy.

It's easy to believe in God if you're scared of death and want comfort.

It's easy to not believe in God if you're not scared of death.

 

Obviously these aren't the only options.

 

 

Anyhow, as a Christian my biggest issue has been similar to what someone else already posted. How can you think everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus and what he did is going to hell when you have tribes living in the jungles of Brasil with no chance of ever seeing a Bible? Maybe there are several religions that are fine and you're just not supposed to be a horrible person very often. Although that flies in the face of Jesus dying for people's sins and not needing to earn our to heaven.

 

So I think I can believe what I believe about Jesus and let God deal with the other people if he wants to instead of forming an opinion and judging others.

 

I'm more scared of death as a believer than I would be if I wasn't....

 

Kind of like high school graduation. There is no reason my diploma wouldn't have been signed. But there was still a very tense second walking of the stage where I peaked to make sure the Superindtendent of Schools and my principal signed it.

 

That "tense second" wouldn't exist if there was no such thing as graduation

 

Other than that, +1 to you!

[zoogs]

 

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. M

 

Nah. Just didn't grow up with it. It's a tradition (or lack there of) we tend to inherit from our parents. Nothing against those who did; we are nothing if not bound by social and cultural traditions. It's really not that empty or different over here, though. We're living in the same world; that is, with each other.

[funhusker]

 

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

Probably going to have to let this one go. You're apparently unwilling or unable to look at it in the same manner that I do. I'm not hedging my bet. If anything, I am hedging the bet for other people. I know for a fact that God was the cause. Don't ask me to prove it or explain it any further. It is a deeply held belief of mine based on my cumulative experiences. The one God creator does not have to be the specific of any one religion. You think he does yet you don't believe in him. I find it somewhat amusing that a self professed non-believer feels compelled to tell others how they need to believe and what's what with that belief. You tried it for years, attending church, leading Bible studies, etc. and you failed at it. Somewhere along the way you adopted some thoughts or beliefs that preclude you from looking at it in the same manner I do and now you actually think you've got it right and I and others have it wrong.

 

I can't look at this natural world and think there was not an intelligent designer. Quite frankly, I don't understand how others can. IMO, belief in a creator, one creator is easy and almost unavoidable. And that belief has nothing to do with any specific God or any specific religion. Once a person accepts that there must have been a first cause, then yes, we will attempt to explain that first cause as best we can and that is where different interpretations of God and the multitude of religions come from. Have you ever wondered why people forever have felt compelled to explain his existence. Maybe it's not as simple as the non-believers like to claim it is. Maybe it's not just pushing the easy button for things we haven't fully figured out. Maybe we do have a soul and maybe there is something in it compelling us to find God. At least that seems a lot more likely to me than a few cells crawling out of the pond and here we are today having these in depth discussions but yet having absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. Many did believe at one time but became angry with God for one reason or another. Usually due to the death or suffering of someone close to them. Those are hard things to deal with and some people bail out because they can't justify those things with a loving father figure of God. They take their human limited thoughts and try to understand why a loving father would let these things happen. They think, it could be so easy if he would just do this or that or the other thing. I've just come to accept that God did not intend for it to be that easy. Sure it would be easy if he would show up weekly, 4000 feet tall riding a cloud and talk to us. If he would remove all pain and suffering from our lives. If he'd just come sit down in our living rooms and explain it all to us in person. That seems to be what so many nonbelievers think should happen. I'm just not arrogant enough to think I know better than an all powerful God and I can accept his existence even with the limits that are in place.

 

I recommend the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner for those that haven't read it.

 

Easy read, takes a couple hours. He's a Rabbi that lost a son at a young age, and ministered to many others experiencing grief. Takes interesting views of bad things that happen in the world. For example, a child dies in a drive by shooting (familiy mourns) and his organs are donated to multiple families (prayers answered). To be clear, he states without question that he doesn't believe God intended for the young child to die in a "master plan", that wouldn't be "just". Just an example of the types of things he writes about.

[funhusker]

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. M

 

Nah. Just didn't grow up with it. It's a tradition (or lack there of) we tend to inherit from our parents. Nothing against those who did; we are nothing if not bound by social and cultural traditions. It's really not that empty or different over here, though. We're living in the same world; that is, with each other.

 

And you didn't have to spend an hour at Church before opening presents on Christmas...

 

In the words of Napolean Dynomite: LUCKY!!!

[JJ Husker]

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. M[/size]

Nah. Just didn't grow up with it. It's a tradition (or lack there of) we tend to inherit from our parents. Nothing against those who did; we are nothing if not bound by social and cultural traditions. It's really not that empty or different over here, though. We're living in the same world; that is, with each other.[/size]

I probably shouldn't have said "most". "Many" would have been more appropriate. I realize that many others simply were not exposed to it or brought up in a household of belief. I'm sure there are almost limitless reasons or circumstances that lead to all our belief differences. But a very common one I have seen is with people who did believe at one time and later became angry with God. Can't say I blame many of them either. Some people have experienced some indescribably bad things that would likely drive the strongest of us away from the faith. And yet others, these very bad experiences strengthened their faith. Some friends of ours lost a teenage daughter to a brain tumor. Terribly sad tragedy. Personally, I don't think I could have dealt with it but their faith helped them through it and has not driven them away from it.

[zoogs]

I think that's somewhat dismissive of people who grew up Christian and decided to leave it. I know many in that category and I wouldn't characterize them as angered by anything. The ones I know of simply drew their own conclusions eventually. I think when you look at it as a human tradition (whether from an agnostic standpoint or not), it's not too hard to let go of the particular reverence you have for any one of the many that have existed.

 

Note that this doesn't dismiss the values you may have gained from it; declining to continue in a religious belief isn't a repudiation of all its tenets, many of which are shared or common across many traditions. I find that a lot, actually, in people who no longer believe in God but still hold valuable many of the things they learned.

 

I'm sure there are many who are also as you describe -- which I won't try to refute. I'm only offering up a different perspective where it isn't a case of being tested by life and failing to cling on as they should have.

[NUance]

Great discussion, guys. It says a lot about HB that we can hold a relatively civil discussion of such a contentious topic. Oh sure, there have been a little bit of saucy back-and-forth exchanges. But for a message board discussion concerning God, this is about as civil as it gets. :

 

============================

 

As to the question of whether an intelligent all powerful being guided the creation of the universe, it seems to me that if you don't believe in God you have to believe that there are a great number of other worlds out there teeming with various other lifeforms. Perhaps billions of other life-worlds, I would think. (If we are the only one, we must be really, really lucky to have such a diversity of sophisticated life on our little planet.) Some of these billions of life-worlds undoubtedly have simpler, less advanced lifeforms.

 

But since the universe is about 14 billion years old, it stands to reason that there must be other worlds with lifeforms far advanced beyond mankind's current abilities. Imagine what mankind will be in 100,000 years—assuming we don't blow ourselves to Smithereens in the next few decades. I wonder why haven't we seen any evidence of advanced lifeforms? (Except on the History Channel.) Don't get me wrong—I wouldn't expect them to hop out of their giant flying saucer to rape our women and steal our uranium. If they are advanced enough we really wouldn't have much worth taking. I mean, a highly advanced civilization coming to earth to steal our supply of uranium would make about as much sense as me going out to the field down the road and stealing the door off a dung beetle's house. If anything, I'd think they'd feel sorry for us and throw us a bone. Maybe cure a few diseases, or help us grow food in famine plagued areas. Where are the aliens??

[Moesker]

 

 

 

I voted for both options. While I believe in the Creator, I don't believe in the literal six 24 hour days. If you follow the six days of creation described in Genesis, it roughly follows the description of how scientists say the world was formed and life started.

 

Day 1.

 

Bible - "Let there be light".

 

Science - The Big Bang happened and the universe glowed from the charged electrons. The sun and planets formed.

 

Day 2.

 

Bible - “God said, ‘Let there be firmament in the midst of the waters and let it separate the waters from the waters.’”

 

Science - Water rich asteroids and other bodies collided with earth and as the earth was still hot, water vapor escaped which formed our atmosphere. The sun and moon were probably not visible at this point though day and night could be sensed. Eventually with further cooling clouds started forming and dumped large amounts of water back on earth.

 

Day 3

Bible - “And God said, ‘Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together in one place and let the dry land appear."

 

Science - The weight of the new oceans compressed the earth and pushed up land masses and separated land from water.

 

Day 3A

 

Bible - “And God said, ‘Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed and fruit trees bearing fruit."

 

Science - This passage does not reconcile well with science as they say sea creatures appeared first.

 

Day 4

 

Bible - “And God said. ‘Let there be light in the firmament of Heavens to separate the day from the night."

 

Science - Again a bit confusing as light from the sun and moon was made on the first day. One theory says that because there was so much humidity in the atmosphere that the skies were opaque and the sun and moon weren't visible as such. Another theory states that this second reference to light on day four of Genesis refers to the evolution of vision of the simple sea life. If there was no vision, then there was, in a sense, no light. So the lights were “turned on” in the evolution of sight in animals. “To separate day from night” refers to the time before and after sight.

 

Day 5

 

Bible - “And God said, ‘Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures. Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas..."

 

Science - They confirm life began in the sea and over time became the fishes that we see in fossils and currently inhabit the oceans.

 

Day 6

 

Bible - “And God said, ‘Let the Earth bring forth living creatures according to their kind; cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kind. Then God created man in his own image ... Male and female created He them ... And God formed man of the dust of the ground ... He took one of Adam’s ribs and made a woman.”

 

Science - They say that life on land.....birds, animals, humans etc came after fish in the sea.

 

I also believe that while Adam and Eve weren't the first 2 legged, upright walking humans on earth, they were the first that God breathed the "breathe of life" into which gave them a conscience, reasoning and the ability to love which separated them from their more animal like ancestors.

 

 

 

I think any religion could find a way to make all of this fit with their scripture.

 

The Book of Genesis wasn't written last week and made to fit what science says. Moses wrote it at a time when nearly every person was illiterate and written language was relatively new. One could almost say science came along 3900 years later and copied the 1st Chapter of Genesis. Perhaps the two religions....science and faith can arrive at the same point some time in the future.

 

Yes, science copied the book of Genesis.

[Moesker]

Great discussion, guys. It says a lot about HB that we can hold a relatively civil discussion of such a contentious topic. Oh sure, there have been a little bit of saucy back-and-forth exchanges. But for a message board discussion concerning God, this is about as civil as it gets. :

 

============================

 

As to the question of whether an intelligent all powerful being guided the creation of the universe, it seems to me that if you don't believe in God you have to believe that there are a great number of other worlds out there teeming with various other lifeforms. Perhaps billions of other life-worlds, I would think. (If we are the only one, we must be really, really lucky to have such a diversity of sophisticated life on our little planet.) Some of these billions of life-worlds undoubtedly have simpler, less advanced lifeforms.

 

But since the universe is about 14 billion years old, it stands to reason that there must be other worlds with lifeforms far advanced beyond mankind's current abilities. Imagine what mankind will be in 100,000 years—assuming we don't blow ourselves to Smithereens in the next few decades. I wonder why haven't we seen any evidence of advanced lifeforms? (Except on the History Channel.) Don't get me wrong—I wouldn't expect them to hop out of their giant flying saucer to rape our women and steal our uranium. If they are advanced enough we really wouldn't have much worth taking. I mean, a highly advanced civilization coming to earth to steal our supply of uranium would make about as much sense as me going out to the field down the road and stealing the door off a dung beetle's house. If anything, I'd think they'd feel sorry for us and throw us a bone. Maybe cure a few diseases, or help us grow food in famine plagued areas. Where are the aliens??

Without a doubt, the law of averages dictates that there are many millions of other civilizations out there, many far more advanced than ours. As for one coming to earth and throwing us a bone, I just hope they are more cordial than what our country's settlers were to the people they encountered.

 

And just think of how many different versions of God are out there in the cosmos.

[knapplc]

 

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

Probably going to have to let this one go. You're apparently unwilling or unable to look at it in the same manner that I do. I'm not hedging my bet. If anything, I am hedging the bet for other people. I know for a fact that God was the cause. Don't ask me to prove it or explain it any further. It is a deeply held belief of mine based on my cumulative experiences. The one God creator does not have to be the specific of any one religion. You think he does yet you don't believe in him. I find it somewhat amusing that a self professed non-believer feels compelled to tell others how they need to believe and what's what with that belief. You tried it for years, attending church, leading Bible studies, etc. and you failed at it. Somewhere along the way you adopted some thoughts or beliefs that preclude you from looking at it in the same manner I do and now you actually think you've got it right and I and others have it wrong.

 

I can't look at this natural world and think there was not an intelligent designer. Quite frankly, I don't understand how others can. IMO, belief in a creator, one creator is easy and almost unavoidable. And that belief has nothing to do with any specific God or any specific religion. Once a person accepts that there must have been a first cause, then yes, we will attempt to explain that first cause as best we can and that is where different interpretations of God and the multitude of religions come from. Have you ever wondered why people forever have felt compelled to explain his existence. Maybe it's not as simple as the non-believers like to claim it is. Maybe it's not just pushing the easy button for things we haven't fully figured out. Maybe we do have a soul and maybe there is something in it compelling us to find God. At least that seems a lot more likely to me than a few cells crawling out of the pond and here we are today having these in depth discussions but yet having absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. Many did believe at one time but became angry with God for one reason or another. Usually due to the death or suffering of someone close to them. Those are hard things to deal with and some people bail out because they can't justify those things with a loving father figure of God. They take their human limited thoughts and try to understand why a loving father would let these things happen. They think, it could be so easy if he would just do this or that or the other thing. I've just come to accept that God did not intend for it to be that easy. Sure it would be easy if he would show up weekly, 4000 feet tall riding a cloud and talk to us. If he would remove all pain and suffering from our lives. If he'd just come sit down in our living rooms and explain it all to us in person. That seems to be what so many nonbelievers think should happen. I'm just not arrogant enough to think I know better than an all powerful God and I can accept his existence even with the limits that are in place.

 

Of course people who don't believe in a god have earthly reasons for it. Earth is all we have.

 

I know for a fact that God was the cause. Don't ask me to prove it or explain it any further.

 

 

Unfortunately, below is what you're considering "fact." It is, in fact, not a fact.

 

 

I can't look at this natural world and think there was not an intelligent designer. Quite frankly, I don't understand how others can. IMO, belief in a creator, one creator is easy and almost unavoidable.

 

 

If you had facts, you could explain them. That's what facts are.

 

 

You have an opinion which is based on an accident of your birth location.

 

I will agree with you on this: I am unwilling to look at it in the same manner as you.

 

I have been where you are. I know how emotional your faith is to you.

[Red Dead Redemption]

Without a doubt, the law of averages dictates that there are many millions of other civilizations out there, many far more advanced than ours. As for one coming to earth and throwing us a bone, I just hope they are more cordial than what our country's settlers were to the people they encountered.