Which is a more likely explanation for creation?

[knapplc]

Of course.

 

 

OK, that was a crap response.

 

 

 

Here's my question - Why do you think I would want it to be anything other than "Knowledge We Don't Have Yet?"

 

Are you presupposing that I'm anti-god? I may not believe in gods, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-god. If god exists, great. I don't think he does, and I've seen no reason to believe he does, but that position is not against god or the people who follow that god.

[knapplc]

And once we figure out where the first molecule came from, we will still be faced with the question, "what caused that?" It's a neverending cycle. And I don't mean to say that we should just break down and say, "God did it!" Personally, I am very curious to see "how" God did it. And whether you believe or not, we all should want to follow that same trail.

The path shouldn't be "How did god do it," the path should be, "How did it happen?" Pre-supposing the existence of a god is not necessarily going to get you the correct answer. You'll get an answer, but it will inevitably include god.

 

You're looking for the right answer, so you have to ask the right question. If the answer includes God, that's fine.

 

The biggest stumbling block to the truth is thinking you already know the answer before you ask the question.

[VectorVictor]

This whole discussion reminds me of the Asimov short story about the end (and beginning of the universe)...I'll see if I can find it...

[knapplc]

You're talking about Multivac and The Last Question. It's a good story.

 

 

Here's a link: http://multivax.com/last_question.html

[zoogs]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/astronomy-terms/big-bang-theory.htm

 

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/origsoflife_04

 

If anyone's interested in the particulars of our current scientific understanding, there's a wealth of resources out there, non of which should preclude faith either. Please don't stop at "it all just seems so unlikely!" The Big Bang is not in any way a controversial idea.

[Landlord]

To add to that, you can be a Christian, accept the naturalistic explanations as we understand them in science for all of these phenomena, not have the need to fit in exactly where in the model God was at work, and still be totally fine.

 

 

 

I would really highly encourage JJ, NUance, any others arguing the "faith" side in this thread, to check out Science Mike. He's a lot more liberal with his thinking than most of us I'd imagine, but he's got a great scientific mind, a healthy perspective, really loves Jesus, and is one of the best communicators I've ever experienced. He has a weekly podcast where he answers questions about science, faith, and life, from stuff such as processed foods, photonic propulsion, god's favor, living in a fish, getting chills, genesis, etc. Fascinating guy.

 

http://mikemchargue.com/asksciencemike

[knapplc]

 

It's only different because we want it to be. They're the same thing: Knowledge We Don't Have Yet.

There only the same thing because you want them to be.

 

 

 

Of course.

 

 

OK, that was a crap response.

 

 

 

Here's my question - Why do you think I would want it to be anything other than "Knowledge We Don't Have Yet?"

 

Are you presupposing that I'm anti-god? I may not believe in gods, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-god. If god exists, great. I don't think he does, and I've seen no reason to believe he does, but that position is not against god or the people who follow that god.

 

 

Sorry to bump this down to the bottom, but I gave a bad answer and BRB may not go back to read my attempt at correcting it, and I'd really like to know the answer to the question in bold.

[HuskerShark]

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

 

So you condemn Christians for being open and accepting of people of other religions? I bet if a Christian came on this board and said that Christianity absolutely is the only way and everyone else is wrong (like you say the Bible says) you'd condemn them as well.

 

Conclusion: It's not good enough for you if someone chooses to believe in something greater than themselves.

 

Why would you want to steer people away from their beliefs? What happens when you pass away and you meet your Creator? Will you feel regret for trying to talk people out of their beliefs when they were in fact correct?

 

While this is not the reason someone should believe in God, what happens if I die and you're right? I guess there's just nothing. But what happens if I die and I'm right? I get to live in eternity with my Creator and my Savior.

[knapplc]

 

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

 

So you condemn Christians for being open and accepting of people of other religions? I bet if a Christian came on this board and said that Christianity absolutely is the only way and everyone else is wrong (like you say the Bible says) you'd condemn them as well.

 

Conclusion: It's not good enough for you if someone chooses to believe in something greater than themselves.

 

Why would you want to steer people away from their beliefs? What happens when you pass away and you meet your Creator? Will you feel regret for trying to talk people out of their beliefs when they were in fact correct?

 

While this is not the reason someone should believe in God, what happens if I die and you're right? I guess there's just nothing. But what happens if I die and I'm right? I get to live in eternity with my Creator and my Savior.

 

 

 

Why, of all the interpretations you could make of my posts on these topics over the last couple of years, do you consistently analyze them in the most harsh and angry terms possible? Why are you so mad?

 

Jesus teaches you to love, even to love your enemy. But you consistently do not show love, you show anger.

 

I'll try to answer these questions as best I can:

 

So you condemn Christians for being open and accepting of people of other religions? No, I don't condemn Christians for... whatever conclusion you're drawing, or for anything. JJ said he didn't necessarily believe God of the Bible is any different than Allah or Vishnu - they're all just incarnations of the same god. But God of the Bible specifically says he isn't. It's an interesting question.

 

Why would you want to steer people away from their beliefs? I don't, and I'm not trying to. NUance asked the question and started the discussion. Do you think only people who agree with your version of faith should be answering here? If not, isn't it fair to allow people with differing views to express their views? I don't believe NUance is trying to convert me to his faith with this thread - I think he's legitimately asking what people think. Why can't people who don't share your faith have that same grace in this thread?

 

What happens when you pass away and you meet your Creator? I don't believe there is a "creator," so nothing will happen. I'll just die.

 

Will you feel regret for trying to talk people out of their beliefs when they were in fact correct? Since no evidence points to god being real, this is a bit of a moot question. But what if God of the Bible isn't the real god? What if Zeus is the real god, and when you die you stand in front of him. Will you feel regret for living your life as a Christian at that point, spreading the Gospel as Jesus commands you to do, gathering them into your faith? That question can cut two ways - have you ever considered that you may have some 'splainin' to do?

 

While this is not the reason someone should believe in God, what happens if I die and you're right? Nothing. You die, life goes on without you, those who love you will carry your memory on in their hearts, they'll miss you... all that stuff.

 

But what happens if I die and I'm right? I get to live in eternity with my Creator and my Savior. This goes back to the Shed analogy I've talked about on this site a few times, to answer people who asked why I'm no longer a Christian. No god worthy of my worship would keep me out of everlasting salvation & glory because I didn't believe in him. No god worthy of my worship should act so irresponsibly toward his creations. No god worthy of my worship should be a worse father than I am. My worship is such a petty and inconsequential thing to a being who could create this entire universe that if that is their criteria, they're welcome to their eternity without me. Either that god loves EVERYONE he created, or he's a sham.

[AR Husker Fan]

True....

 

And, no matter what your personal belief is, at that very point of that very first step of creating the universe.......all sides to the argument have to believe in something that their mind can not comprehend.

Bingo. On the one hand, the human mind cannot conceive of something that exists - that didn't have a beginning (whether that is a reality - a universe at whatever point of existence - or a deity), while paradoxically, it cannot conceive of its own end. The mind can't truly believe there will come a time when it does not exist.

 

Funny, ain't it?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

It's only different because we want it to be. They're the same thing: Knowledge We Don't Have Yet.

There only the same thing because you want them to be.

 

 

 

Of course.

 

 

OK, that was a crap response.

 

 

 

Here's my question - Why do you think I would want it to be anything other than "Knowledge We Don't Have Yet?"

 

Are you presupposing that I'm anti-god? I may not believe in gods, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-god. If god exists, great. I don't think he does, and I've seen no reason to believe he does, but that position is not against god or the people who follow that god.

 

 

Sorry to bump this down to the bottom, but I gave a bad answer and BRB may not go back to read my attempt at correcting it, and I'd really like to know the answer to the question in bold.

 

You and I have had enough discussions about this and I respect you enough on the subject that I didn't have a problem with your response.

 

I have no clue if you are anti God in the grand scheme of things and really don't particularly care.

 

As for me....I'm not saying I want Science to find it one way or the other. If All of a sudden Science came out and said....Ah haaaa....we know where that molecule came from and we have proof it has nothing to do with a higher power....Fine....It frees up my Sunday mornings.

 

But...here's my problem. Science can discover where lightning comes from. It can discover what causes an earthquake. They are able to do that because they can examine evidence before during and after that moment in time. My human brain can not fathom them being able to discover what existed before anything existed physically. There is no evidence of what is before anything was here. So....if you are just using scientific evidence, there is no scientific evidence to even examine before that first molecule existed.

 

My personal opinion is that anyone who contemplates that second in history before that first molecule existed WITHOUT considering a higher power is doing the same thing as a religious person that doesn't believe anything Science throws at them.

 

Belief in a higher power should not exist without accepting science and understanding that. I personally believe that should go the other way also. No, I don't want a scientist going in predetermined to prove God exists. But, totally casting out the idea of it isn't being totally honest scientifically either.

[HuskerShark]

 

 

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

 

So you condemn Christians for being open and accepting of people of other religions? I bet if a Christian came on this board and said that Christianity absolutely is the only way and everyone else is wrong (like you say the Bible says) you'd condemn them as well.

 

Conclusion: It's not good enough for you if someone chooses to believe in something greater than themselves.

 

Why would you want to steer people away from their beliefs? What happens when you pass away and you meet your Creator? Will you feel regret for trying to talk people out of their beliefs when they were in fact correct?

 

While this is not the reason someone should believe in God, what happens if I die and you're right? I guess there's just nothing. But what happens if I die and I'm right? I get to live in eternity with my Creator and my Savior.

 

 

 

Why, of all the interpretations you could make of my posts on these topics over the last couple of years, do you consistently analyze them in the most harsh and angry terms possible? Why are you so mad?

 

Jesus teaches you to love, even to love your enemy. But you consistently do not show love, you show anger.

 

I'll try to answer these questions as best I can:

 

So you condemn Christians for being open and accepting of people of other religions? No, I don't condemn Christians for... whatever conclusion you're drawing, or for anything. JJ said he didn't necessarily believe God of the Bible is any different than Allah or Vishnu - they're all just incarnations of the same god. But God of the Bible specifically says he isn't. It's an interesting question.

 

Why would you want to steer people away from their beliefs? I don't, and I'm not trying to. NUance asked the question and started the discussion. Do you think only people who agree with your version of faith should be answering here? If not, isn't it fair to allow people with differing views to express their views? I don't believe NUance is trying to convert me to his faith with this thread - I think he's legitimately asking what people think. Why can't people who don't share your faith have that same grace in this thread?

 

What happens when you pass away and you meet your Creator? I don't believe there is a "creator," so nothing will happen. I'll just die.

 

Will you feel regret for trying to talk people out of their beliefs when they were in fact correct? Since no evidence points to god being real, this is a bit of a moot question. But what if God of the Bible isn't the real god? What if Zeus is the real god, and when you die you stand in front of him. Will you feel regret for living your life as a Christian at that point, spreading the Gospel as Jesus commands you to do, gathering them into your faith? That question can cut two ways - have you ever considered that you may have some 'splainin' to do?

 

While this is not the reason someone should believe in God, what happens if I die and you're right? Nothing. You die, life goes on without you, those who love you will carry your memory on in their hearts, they'll miss you... all that stuff.

 

But what happens if I die and I'm right? I get to live in eternity with my Creator and my Savior. This goes back to the Shed analogy I've talked about on this site a few times, to answer people who asked why I'm no longer a Christian. No god worthy of my worship would keep me out of everlasting salvation & glory because I didn't believe in him. No god worthy of my worship should act so irresponsibly toward his creations. No god worthy of my worship should be a worse father than I am. My worship is such a petty and inconsequential thing to a being who could create this entire universe that if that is their criteria, they're welcome to their eternity without me. Either that god loves EVERYONE he created, or he's a sham.

 

 

The issue isn't that you're suggesting alternative viewpoints to the beliefs of Christians. The issue is that you basically try calling Christians stupid. Sorry if that's not pleasing to me.

 

From reading your posts over the years, I don't get the impression that you "don't believe." I get the impression that you believe in God, but you're angry at Him because of some "disagreements" in philosophy.

 

And regarding your last paragraph, that's a boat-load of arrogance and entitlement. The Christian God grants everlasting life in Heaven to anyone who proclaims Jesus as their Lord and Savior. According to scripture, if someone takes the road you're taking and refuses to acknowledge Him, then you accept the fate you've chosen I guess, which is too bad, honestly.

[Landlord]

If All of a sudden Science came out and said....Ah haaaa....we know where that molecule came from and we have proof it has nothing to do with a higher power....Fine....It frees up my Sunday mornings.

 

 

Science can't, and won't, make that claim, because science deals with observations about the seen universe. Science doesn't have a bias against faith or the supernatural, but it has a materialistic presupposition because it's literally the study of materialism, so science will only ever get to the point of saying, "Here is what we know about this thing due to confirmed, duplicated, falsifiable observations and conclusions that we are able to witness".

 

 

Unrelated, time is not linear. Space time is a dimension and it doesn't exist on a timeline the way that we live through it, so for someone to say "I just don't get how something could have existed the second before everything existed" makes about as much sense physically speaking as saying that "I don't get how left and right work because there's always something more left than left. Where does left start? How can there be something more left?"

[BigRedBuster]

 

If All of a sudden Science came out and said....Ah haaaa....we know where that molecule came from and we have proof it has nothing to do with a higher power....Fine....It frees up my Sunday mornings.

 

 

Science can't, and won't, make that claim, because science deals with observations about the seen universe. Science doesn't have a bias against faith or the supernatural, but it has a materialistic presupposition because it's literally the study of materialism, so science will only ever get to the point of saying, "Here is what we know about this thing due to confirmed, duplicated, falsifiable observations and conclusions that we are able to witness".

 

 

Unrelated, time is not linear. Space time is a dimension and it doesn't exist on a timeline the way that we live through it, so for someone to say "I just don't get how something could have existed the second before everything existed" makes about as much sense physically speaking as saying that "I don't get how left and right work because there's always something more left than left. Where does left start? How can there be something more left?"

 

 

First paragraph: I completely agree with this. And, that's in large part why I don't see science and belief in a higher power really having much to do with each other. My personal belief is that science is simply showing evidence of what a higher power created as far as chemistry and physics in how the world works. That is.....unless they can prove to me when, where and how that first molecule was created without a higher power.

 

Second paragraph: before that first molecule, there is no left.

[knapplc]

The issue isn't that you're suggesting alternative viewpoints to the beliefs of Christians. The issue is that you basically try calling Christians stupid. Sorry if that's not pleasing to me.

 

From reading your posts over the years, I don't get the impression that you "don't believe." I get the impression that you believe in God, but you're angry at Him because of some "disagreements" in philosophy.

 

And regarding your last paragraph, that's a boat-load of arrogance and entitlement. The Christian God grants everlasting life in Heaven to anyone who proclaims Jesus as their Lord and Savior. According to scripture, if someone takes the road you're taking and refuses to acknowledge Him, then you accept the fate you've chosen I guess, which is too bad, honestly.

 

The issue isn't that you're suggesting alternative viewpoints to the beliefs of Christians. This is exactly, specifically, and only what I'm doing.

 

The issue is that you basically try calling Christians stupid. You may feel that way when you read my posts, but that's very clearly NOT what I'm trying to do. I can't help the way you feel, all I can do is take part in these discussions and answer the questions as best I can. How you interpret that is on you.

 

From reading your posts over the years, I don't get the impression that you "don't believe." You should. I don't. That's based on decades of Christian teaching and an exhaustive two-year study of the Bible.

 

And regarding your last paragraph, that's a boat-load of arrogance and entitlement. The Christian God grants everlasting life in Heaven to anyone who proclaims Jesus as their Lord and Savior. According to scripture, if someone takes the road you're taking and refuses to acknowledge Him, then you accept the fate you've chosen I guess, which is too bad, honestly. Well... One man's "arrogance and entitlement" is another's rational viewpoint.