Which is a more likely explanation for creation?

[Moesker]

 

Why aren't you saying THIS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD? The god you pray to says he is:

 

Deuteronomy 4:35 & 39

Deuteronomy 32:39

II Kings 5:15

Isaiah 37:16 & 20

Mark 12:29-34

John 17:3

1st Timothy 2:5

 

It seems like you're trying to hedge your bet - you acknowledge that there's a significant flaw in the myth of your god, so you leave room in your worldview that "god" may not be who you think he is.

 

It's actually a very Roman view, whether you know it or not. The Romans prayed to an "unknown god," because they acknowledged they may not know everything about every god, so they hedged their bet by sacrificing to this unnamed god, "just in case."

 

I guess that conveniently gets you off the hook of the "where you were born dictates what god you pray to" if you can somehow wrap your brain around the God of the Bible being one & the same with Allah - even though he explicitly states he isn't, and he isn't ambiguous about who he is.

 

It's like marrying a woman but feeling free to sleep with every other woman on the planet because it's possible they all share the same soul. You can try that if you get caught sleeping around, but I doubt your wife will be on board with it.

Probably going to have to let this one go. You're apparently unwilling or unable to look at it in the same manner that I do. I'm not hedging my bet. If anything, I am hedging the bet for other people. I know for a fact that God was the cause. Don't ask me to prove it or explain it any further. It is a deeply held belief of mine based on my cumulative experiences.

 

You just contradicted yourself. Is it a fact or a belief? You might tell yourself its a fact but in reality, its just your opinion or faith. I would never be arogant enough to say its a fact there is no higher power. Saying there is one, is just as arrogant.

[Moesker]

 

 

 

 

 

The watchmaker analogy is self-refuting because it obviously looks designed compared to its natural surroundings, which weren't designed.

Interesting that you'd make that statement. Which would be more difficult to create from scratch, a brass watch or the bed of clovers that it is lying on? Given enough time and the right machinery I could make a brass watch. But all the world's resources and intelligence working for a decade could not create one single, reproducing clover plant.

Right. We're saying the watch has a creator, because we can replicate its creation. We can't make that argument with the clover. We can't replicate billions of years of natural selection in a decade.

Wait, wut? I no understand your logic. If we know something as simple as a pocket watch has a creator, wouldn't something as incredibly complex as all the biological systems on earth be even more likely to have a creator?

No. The reasons we know the watch had an intelligent designer can't be applied to the clover. Assuming the complexity of life on earth is the product of an intelligent designer fails to account for alternate explanations. Darwin had a better explanation.

 

 

Why do people who do not believe in God always insist that evolution precludes the possibility of God? I don't think the concept of evolution is incompatible with God.

 

I don't either.

 

Why do believers always paint non-believers with such a wifde brush...especially when there are far more anti-evolution people who are believers?

[Moesker]

 

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. M[/size]

Nah. Just didn't grow up with it. It's a tradition (or lack there of) we tend to inherit from our parents. Nothing against those who did; we are nothing if not bound by social and cultural traditions. It's really not that empty or different over here, though. We're living in the same world; that is, with each other.[/size]

I probably shouldn't have said "most". "Many" would have been more appropriate. I realize that many others simply were not exposed to it or brought up in a household of belief. I'm sure there are almost limitless reasons or circumstances that lead to all our belief differences. But a very common one I have seen is with people who did believe at one time and later became angry with God. Can't say I blame many of them either. Some people have experienced some indescribably bad things that would likely drive the strongest of us away from the faith. And yet others, these very bad experiences strengthened their faith. Some friends of ours lost a teenage daughter to a brain tumor. Terribly sad tragedy. Personally, I don't think I could have dealt with it but their faith helped them through it and has not driven them away from it.

 

I never had one bad moment at church. No pedophile pastors or corrupt church officials to speak of. I just did my own study of the bible when I had the opportunity and drew my own conclusions.

[Moesker]

 

Without a doubt, the law of averages dictates that there are many millions of other civilizations out there, many far more advanced than ours. As for one coming to earth and throwing us a bone, I just hope they are more cordial than what our country's settlers were to the people they encountered.

 

Antenna kisser.

[Red Dead Redemption]

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. Many did believe at one time but became angry with God for one reason or another. Usually due to the death or suffering of someone close to them. Those are hard things to deal with and some people bail out because they can't justify those things with a loving father figure of God. They take their human limited thoughts and try to understand why a loving father would let these things happen. They think, it could be so easy if he would just do this or that or the other thing. I've just come to accept that God did not intend for it to be that easy. Sure it would be easy if he would show up weekly, 4000 feet tall riding a cloud and talk to us. If he would remove all pain and suffering from our lives. If he'd just come sit down in our living rooms and explain it all to us in person. That seems to be what so many nonbelievers think should happen.

Pfffttt....Are you serious with this?

 

 

I'm just not arrogant....

wrong again....

[zoogs]

As to the question of whether an intelligent all powerful being guided the creation of the universe, it seems to me that if you don't believe in God you have to believe that there are a great number of other worlds out there teeming with various other lifeforms.

 

...since the universe is about 14 billion years old, it stands to reason that there must be other worlds with lifeforms far advanced beyond mankind's current abilities.

Yeah, that's the Fermi Paradox, and it's a fascinating question for which there are a wild number of different postulations. It's all rather speculative, but kind of fun. It's so possible that we won't advance one iota in clarity in our lifetimes, but you never know.

 

Space is a vast place. Even in our own solar system, in the past ten or so years, we've gone from "9 Planets" to "8 Planets" to, very recently, "There really is a massive 9th Planet out there."

 

Edit, forgot to throw out a link: http://gizmodo.com/new-solution-to-fermi-paradox-suggests-alien-life-goes-1754307235

 

And I echo your thoughts about the quality (well, largely) of the discussion, NUance!

[Red Dead Redemption]

it would be easy if he would show up weekly, 4000 feet tall riding a cloud and talk to us.

 

 

.

[Lil' Red]

 

 

It has been my experience that most every person who does not believe in God has some earthly reasons for it. M[/size]

Nah. Just didn't grow up with it. It's a tradition (or lack there of) we tend to inherit from our parents. Nothing against those who did; we are nothing if not bound by social and cultural traditions. It's really not that empty or different over here, though. We're living in the same world; that is, with each other.[/size]

I probably shouldn't have said "most". "Many" would have been more appropriate. I realize that many others simply were not exposed to it or brought up in a household of belief. I'm sure there are almost limitless reasons or circumstances that lead to all our belief differences. But a very common one I have seen is with people who did believe at one time and later became angry with God. Can't say I blame many of them either. Some people have experienced some indescribably bad things that would likely drive the strongest of us away from the faith. And yet others, these very bad experiences strengthened their faith. Some friends of ours lost a teenage daughter to a brain tumor. Terribly sad tragedy. Personally, I don't think I could have dealt with it but their faith helped them through it and has not driven them away from it.

 

In my experience, that is actually a fairly uncommon reason. I, along with most of the nonbelievers I know, stopped believing primarily due to the lack of evidence supporting the existence of a god.

[Landlord]

A lot of wide brushes being painted with in here.

[JJ Husker]

Okay, fine....Many many innumerable amounts of people have come to the conclusion that there is no God based on lack of evidence and their own failed quest to confirm the existence of God. Happy now? f#*k! Can a guy make one simple observation without people going ape sh#t over it and assuming that is what must be thought about every nonbeliever? The reading comprehension on this board really sucks sometimes.

 

One last parting thought. If you're looking for hard scientific evidence of God or a creator, you are going to likely be disappointed. I am amazed at the people who just can't grasp the nature of an unseen supernatural entity. You expect, nay demand, hard proof when the very nature of the being precludes hard evidence. It's like some people don't even try to understand it. I'm out.

[knapplc]

Why are you so angry?

[JJ Husker]

Why are you so angry?

I've been accused of being dismissive when that was not my intention or in my thoughts whatsoever.

 

I made the mistake of pressing the "view it anyway" buttons on Moesker and Red Dead Retreads comments. They always put me in a bad mood. I will be sure to never make that mistake again.

 

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I don't write well enough to convey what it is exactly I am feeling. But it sure seems like some people have their heads up their ass in the reading comprehension category. Or they are just looking for a fight or to be contentious. I guess I've just had enough of it for awhile.

[Landlord]

One last parting thought. If you're looking for hard scientific evidence of God or a creator, you are going to likely be disappointed. I am amazed at the people who just can't grasp the nature of an unseen supernatural entity. You expect, nay demand, hard proof when the very nature of the being precludes hard evidence. It's like some people don't even try to understand it. I'm out.

 

 

This statement is mostly true, I think, and would be entirely true if God was a deistic sort of God, but if we're talking about the Christian God then we are talking about millenia of intervening within space time which would naturally lead one in a rationalistic post-enlightenment culture to expect to find evidence.

[JJ Husker]

 

One last parting thought. If you're looking for hard scientific evidence of God or a creator, you are going to likely be disappointed. I am amazed at the people who just can't grasp the nature of an unseen supernatural entity. You expect, nay demand, hard proof when the very nature of the being precludes hard evidence. It's like some people don't even try to understand it. I'm out.

 

 

This statement is mostly true, I think, and would be entirely true if God was a deistic sort of God, but if we're talking about the Christian God then we are talking about millenia of intervening within space time which would naturally lead one in a rationalistic post-enlightenment culture to expect to find evidence.

Oh good. You are a believer. So based on this, please post the hard evidence you have of the existence of God so we can put this to bed once and for all.

[Landlord]

 

 

One last parting thought. If you're looking for hard scientific evidence of God or a creator, you are going to likely be disappointed. I am amazed at the people who just can't grasp the nature of an unseen supernatural entity. You expect, nay demand, hard proof when the very nature of the being precludes hard evidence. It's like some people don't even try to understand it. I'm out.

 

This statement is mostly true, I think, and would be entirely true if God was a deistic sort of God, but if we're talking about the Christian God then we are talking about millenia of intervening within space time which would naturally lead one in a rationalistic post-enlightenment culture to expect to find evidence.

Oh good. You are a believer. So based on this, please post the hard evidence you have of the existence of God so we can put this to bed once and for all.

 

 

 

I don't have any. At least not anything that couldn't just as easily be interpreted as evidence towards something else depending on a person's perspective.