BigRedBuster Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Oh isn't this precious. 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 And we don't need term limits why??? Good grief - I apologize for anything I've said against the Clinton Foundation (well not really but lets just say EVERYONE IS PAYING TO PLAY IN DC ) This quote just boggles the mind. The corruption is mind blowing. quote: In Congress, Boehner was known for his strong alliances with the lobbying community. In 1995, Boehner was caught distributing campaign checks from the tobacco industry on the House floor to members to influence a vote on tobacco legislation. In 2006, the Washington Post revealed that Boehner lived in an apartment on Capitol Hill rented to him by a lobbyist who did business with his committee. As Republican leader, he was known for scheduling votes around fundraising events, including one incident in which Boehner interrupted House proceedings so he could attend a lobbyist-fueled bash called the “Boehner Beach Party.” Boehner’s closeness with the lobbying industry was a big part of how he moved up the leadership ladder within the GOP. For years, he convened a “Thursday Group” to huddle with representatives of the largest corporations in America to discuss strategy and to fundraise for his party. Boehner’s retirement from the House was met by speculation in the political press that he was done with politics and more interested in sipping wine and mowing the lawn. But in reality, he’ll still be a major political player, finally getting the role he’s auditioned for over the course of three decades in elected office. 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 These are the types of people who you support when you are part of a political party and spew the vomit they get you to swallow. Link to comment
Red Five Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 How happy do you think he is this year not having to be involved in the Trump mess? 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 How happy do you think he is this year not having to be involved in the Trump mess? He's also setting himself up for a huge payday if Trump wins. If that happens, the Chinese are going to be paying one hell of a lot of money to lobbyists to stop his isolationist policies. Link to comment
zoogs Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Of course, it's the principle of lower taxes and regulations. Certainly not Big Industry purchasing political sway to tilt the rules in their favor. Big Industry would never. 2 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 We have citizenry that vote for politicians so they can feed off the gov't pig troth (citizens - the ones gaming the system, also includes but the wealthy, industry, etc) and we have politicians who eat from the same troth for their own greedy end. While the 'normal' citizen who works hard, doesn't take govt handouts unless absolutely needed (job layoffs and disabilities happen to the good hearted citizens who won't game the system as well) is stuck wt the ever increasing tax bill. Time to end this merry-go-round in DC. This going from congress to lobbyist routine needs to stop. I think this applies: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.The earliest known attribution of this quote was December 9, 1951, in what appears to be an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the byline Elmer T. Peterson, Elmer T. Peterson (9 December 1951). "This is the Hard Core of Freedom". Daily Oklahoman: p. 12A. . The quote has not been found in Tytler's work. It has also been attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville. There are many variants circulating with various permutations of majority, voters, citizens, or public. Ronald Reagan is known to have used this in speeches, as reported in Loren Collins, "The Truth About Tytler": Other variants:The American Republic will endure until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy, from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more.This quotation was actually by Henning Webb Prentis, president of the Armstrong Cork Company and former president of the National Association of Manufacturers, in a February 1943 address entitled "The Cult of Competency" delivered at a Mid-Year Convocation of the General Alumni Society of the University of Pennsylvania (The General Magazine and Historical Chronicle, Vol. XLV, Numb. III, April 1943, pp. 272-73). This quotation sometimes appears joined with the above one, most notably as part of a longer piece which began circulating on the Internet shortly after the 2000 U.S. Presidential Election ("The Fall of the Athenian Republic," Urban Legends Reference Pages): A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage Link to comment
knapplc Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Spiritual faith has no place in that quote. Democracy is not a religion, and works best when separated from religion. Link to comment
Danny Bateman Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 Of course, it's the principle of lower taxes and regulations. Certainly not Big Industry purchasing political sway to tilt the rules in their favor. Big Industry would never. Rabble rabble, a freer market naturally does things that are in the public's best interests, rabble rabble. 2 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 Spiritual faith has no place in that quote. Democracy is not a religion, and works best when separated from religion. Knapp, while I agree that democracy is not a religion and is for all people, religious or not, I and these others below disagree wt your last statement that it works best separated from religion. I would agree - separated from religious zealots who would want to turn the country into a theocracy (regardless if it is Islam, Christian, Jewish, or Flying Meatballs) but the influence of religion on democracy's moral perspective & character is another story. The statement also ignores how religious faith renewed the nation in difficult times - the revivals of the 1700s beginning wt the Great Awakening had a profound affect on the nation and these revivals continued even through last century as noted in the link below. Granted it is more difficult for a local revival to grow and affect a larger and more diverse population that we now have however the influence of spiritual life on our democracy's vitality is without question. http://patrickmorley.com/blog/2015/6/23/a-brief-history-of-spiritual-revival-and-awakening-in-America Here is what a few good men had to say about democracy and religious/moral life: http://www.westillholdthesetruths.org/quotes/category/religion-and-morality George Washington Farewell Address Categories: Religion and Morality Date: September 19, 1796 Of all the dispositions and habits which least to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indespensible supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in the Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the opposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. John Adams Address to First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts Categories: Religion and Morality Date: October 11, 1798 We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Noah Webster History of the United States Categories: Americans / American Character, Character, Political Leaders, Religion and Morality, Republican Government Date: Unknown f the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . . If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. George Washington First Inaugural Address Categories: Religion and Morality Date: April 30, 1789 The foundations of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality, and the preeminence of free government be exemplified by all the attributes which can win the affections of its citizens, and command the respect of the world. Samuel Adams letter to John Trumbull Categories: Religion and Morality Date: October 16, 1778 Religion and good morals are the only solid foundation of public liberty and happiness. Benjamin Franklin to Thomas Paine Categories: Religion and Morality Date: Unknown If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it? John Jay letter to Peter Augustus Jay Categories: Religion and Morality Date: April 9, 1784 The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts. George Washington letter to Thomas Nelson Categories: Religion and Morality Date: August 20, 1778 The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations. Thomas Jefferson Sheridan, Liberty and Virtue Categories: Religion and Morality Date: Unknown The Christian religion, [when] brought to the original purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty. Thomas Jefferson Draft for a Bill to Establish Religious Freedom in Virginia Categories: Human Nature, Religion and Morality, Religious Liberty Date: 1779 Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion. Thomas Jefferson A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom Categories: Religion and Morality, Religious Liberty Date: 1779 [T]hat the opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor under its jurisdiction; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous falacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty. John Adams Letter to Mercy Warren Categories: Government, Religion and Morality Date: April 16, 1776 The form of government which you admire, when its principles are pure is admirable indeed. It is productive of every Thing which is great and excellent among men. But its principles are as easily destroyed as human nature is corrupted. Such a government is only to be supported by pure religion or Austere morals. James Madison A Memorial and Remonstrance Categories: Religion and Morality, Religious Liberty Date: 1785 Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that Religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only be reason and convection, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. John Adams To the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts Categories: Americans / American Character, Constitution, Religion and Morality, Virtue Date: October 11, 1798 But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation while it is practicing iniquity and extravagance and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams letter to Zabdiel Adams Categories: Religion and Morality Date: June 21, 1776 Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand . . . . The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. Thomas Jefferson To James Fishback Categories: Religion and Morality, Virtue Date: Unknown Reading, reflection and time have convinced me that the interests of society require the observation of those moral precepts only in which all religions agree. The link has many other quotes 2 Link to comment
knapplc Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 No. Religious zealots will, inevitably, promote religion as part of every facet of their lives. That's the nature of the religious. I have no problem with people exercising their religion. The inevitable problem with combining religion and government is the exclusion of those who do not believe what you believe. A Christian government in America excludes every other religion and every irreligious person. We have only to look at the persecution of Christians in the Middle East by Islamic governments/zealots to see this is true. We have only to look at Donald Trump's stated intention to deport Muslims to see this is true. Religion requires subjugation, whether that be to "god" or to the "church" as the god's representative. Granted that power, inevitably there will be corruption. Combine corruption with religious zealotry and you have a portion of the population without a voice, and that is not a Democracy. A Democracy is not Christian, and CAN NOT be. It must be non-theistic, non-partisan, encompassing and accepting. If it is not, if it grants favor to any body, whether that be religious or atheistic or liberal or conservative, it silences other voices. That is the antithesis of Democracy. Link to comment
TGHusker Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Knapp, calm down, did you not read what I said? Or maybe you didn't understand - if that is the case I will take the blame for not communicating clearly. Quote: Knapp, while I agree that democracy is not a religion and is for all people, religious or not, I and these others below disagree wt your last statement that it works best separated from religion. I would agree - separated from religious zealots who would want to turn the country into a theocracy (regardless if it is Islam, Christian, Jewish, or Flying Meatballs) but the influence of religion on democracy's moral perspective & character is another story. Or maybe you misunderstood what I was saying: I agree 1000% - no theocracy. Democracy means a govt by all people for all people. What I'm talking about is the spiritual formation of morals and its positive affect on gov't and society in general. I am not talking about a particular religion formally leading our govt (as in the case you site in the Mideast where yes Christians are being persecuted badly) Obviously if 98% of the population was atheist, or Catholic, or whatever the democracy's laws will most likely reflect those majority belief systems. However, for it to be a democracy for all people, it must protect the rights of the minority. Those founding fathers that I quoted were basically saying that democracy works best among a moral people. If you get good morals from the Flying Spaghetti Meatball than so be it. If good morals come from your religious traditions and upbringing than so be it. Democracy won't work with a primary selfish, immoral people. Only a totalitarian can rule over such people and keep societal order. --- And that is my fear wt Trump - could he become our version of a totalitarian? Link to comment
knapplc Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I fully understood what you were saying, before & now. There's no need to be condescending. Link to comment
TGHusker Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I fully understood what you were saying, before & now. There's no need to be condescending. Sorry, didn't mean to come across that way if that is how it sounded please excuse my tone. We both agree - no religious 'democracy' because that in the end won't be a democracy. Maybe you were saying the same thing and I took it wrong. Link to comment
cm husker Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 And we don't need term limits why??? Good grief - I apologize for anything I've said against the Clinton Foundation (well not really but lets just say EVERYONE IS PAYING TO PLAY IN DC ) This quote just boggles the mind. The corruption is mind blowing. quote: In Congress, Boehner was known for his strong alliances with the lobbying community. In 1995, Boehner was caught distributing campaign checks from the tobacco industry on the House floor to members to influence a vote on tobacco legislation. In 2006, the Washington Post revealed that Boehner lived in an apartment on Capitol Hill rented to him by a lobbyist who did business with his committee. As Republican leader, he was known for scheduling votes around fundraising events, including one incident in which Boehner interrupted House proceedings so he could attend a lobbyist-fueled bash called the Boehner Beach Party. Boehners closeness with the lobbying industry was a big part of how he moved up the leadership ladder within the GOP. For years, he convened a Thursday Group to huddle with representatives of the largest corporations in America to discuss strategy and to fundraise for his party. Boehners retirement from the House was met by speculation in the political press that he was done with politics and more interested in sipping wine and mowing the lawn. But in reality, hell still be a major political player, finally getting the role hes auditioned for over the course of three decades in elected office. Term limits would only exasperate the problem becuase people would get in and behave only with the incentive of "cashing out" later. What we need to do is disempower congress so there's less incentive and need for companies to leverage lobbyists. Link to comment
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