A Christian republic (POLL)

[Landlord]

sigh

[Landlord]

BRB, the question you asked doesn't even fall under big bang theory. And nothing even exploded - you're proving your entire lack of knowledge of the field, because there was no explosion of any kind.

 

 

If you ask the wrong kinds of questions founded in a misunderstanding of the subject you're asking about - you're bound to be disappointed by the answers.

[knapplc]

A great place to start with physics is Stephen Hawking's books A Brief History of Time and The Universe In A Nutshell.

 

Hawking breaks it down well for the layman, making the concepts easy enough to understand for people without physics degrees.

 

You can pick up a copy (illustrated!) at Amazon for cheap.

 

Another great read is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which contains some now outdated string theory info, but was on the cutting edge back in the late 1990s. I sat in on one of Dr. Greene's lectures at Stanford back in the day, and was not lost at all with this material. It was one of the highlights of my time living in California.

[BigRedBuster]

BRB, the question you asked doesn't even fall under big bang theory. And nothing even exploded - you're proving your entire lack of knowledge of the field, because there was no explosion of any kind.

 

 

If you ask the wrong kinds of questions founded in a misunderstanding of the subject you're asking about - you're bound to be disappointed by the answers.

Then take the word "exploded" out of it. I simply used it because I couldn't think of another word to use for the beginning of the chemical reaction that started everything.

 

So, what existed before "whatever you want to call it" started?

 

I don't expect you to be able to answer this because there are no answers. Whatever point you start at, there has to be something before that. You agreed with this when you wrote "but anything before the actual 'bang' is still rooted, primarily, in speculative research."

 

This part of the discussion isn't about what you and I believe is real or not real or what religion we believe. It's about the statement that what is taught in science class is ONLY based on observable facts. And, the fact is, we can not observe what existed before anything existed. But, we are taught in science class that the origins of everything came out of a chemical reaction of some kind from matter that must have just all of a sudden appeared.

[knapplc]

 

BRB, the question you asked doesn't even fall under big bang theory. And nothing even exploded - you're proving your entire lack of knowledge of the field, because there was no explosion of any kind.

 

 

If you ask the wrong kinds of questions founded in a misunderstanding of the subject you're asking about - you're bound to be disappointed by the answers.

Then take the word "exploded" out of it. I simply used it because I couldn't think of another word to use for the beginning of the chemical reaction that started everything.

 

So, what existed before "whatever you want to call it" started?

 

I don't expect you to be able to answer this because there are no answers. Whatever point you start at, there has to be something before that. You agreed with this when you wrote "but anything before the actual 'bang' is still rooted, primarily, in speculative research."

 

This part of the discussion isn't about what you and I believe is real or not real or what religion we believe. It's about the statement that what is taught in science class is ONLY based on observable facts. And, the fact is, we can not observe what existed before anything existed. But, we are taught in science class that the origins of everything came out of a chemical reaction of some kind from matter that must have just all of a sudden appeared.

 

 

You said it yourself. The Big Bang is based on observable facts. It is not observable, and it is not taught as a fact. Because of our observations, we have very good reasons to believe that the Big Bang, as currently described, is where the universe came from.

 

It's like looking down a road and not being able to see the end. Based on the fact that all the cars coming our way are carrying beach gear and surfboards, we can reasonably surmise that there's a body of water down there.

 

That's all the Big Bang theory is.

[BigRedBuster]

A great place to start with physics is Stephen Hawking's books A Brief History of Time and The Universe In A Nutshell.

 

Hawking breaks it down well for the layman, making the concepts easy enough to understand for people without physics degrees.

 

You can pick up a copy (illustrated!) at Amazon for cheap.

 

Another great read is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which contains some now outdated string theory info, but was on the cutting edge back in the late 1990s. I sat in on one of Dr. Greene's lectures at Stanford back in the day, and was not lost at all with this material. It was one of the highlights of my time living in California.

To aid the discussion.

 

What do these two gentlemen believe existed before anything existed?

[Landlord]

Predictions put forth by the BBT:

 

- The universe is homogenous and isotropic. Observed and proven true.

- There should be radiation left over from the early, hot, dense moments of the universe. Observed and confirmed.

- That galaxies should be moving apart. Confirmed by Edwin Hubble in 1929

- That the big bang should have produced an abundance of hydrogen, deuterium, helium, and lithium. The predicted abundances are consistent with what has since been observed present-day

- That there should be fluctuations in the in the CMBR. Check.

- That we should only be able to see so far into the past. 13.8 billion years confirmed.

- That light should curve/bend around supernovae. Yep.

- Gravity waves. Just recently discovered as one of the most important scientific moments of the century to come.

[zoogs]

 

I think it's completely fair to say: tax money for public schools, your own money for private ones. It's hard not to see the public system under threat otherwise.

Um.... It's all my money.

 

The entire concept of taxation is that these are public funds, with public oversight on how they should be used, IMO. So I'd disagree there. I mean, this is part of the reason why it's good to keep taxes generally low.

 

And, I support efforts to try and improve American school systems. But to say that they are currently in shambles? That, I don't think, is accurate. There's wide variation in quality, of course, perhaps too wide. We are producing no shortage of excellent students.

[knapplc]

 

A great place to start with physics is Stephen Hawking's books A Brief History of Time and The Universe In A Nutshell.

 

Hawking breaks it down well for the layman, making the concepts easy enough to understand for people without physics degrees.

 

You can pick up a copy (illustrated!) at Amazon for cheap.

 

Another great read is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which contains some now outdated string theory info, but was on the cutting edge back in the late 1990s. I sat in on one of Dr. Greene's lectures at Stanford back in the day, and was not lost at all with this material. It was one of the highlights of my time living in California.

To aid the discussion.

 

What do these two gentlemen believe existed before anything existed?

 

 

Absolutely nothing. Serious answer.

 

They have a way of explaining it that makes sense, even to a layman. Strongly recommend picking up Hawking's books (the one I linked is a two-books-in-one deal, and it's the one I have).

[Landlord]

So, what existed before "whatever you want to call it" started?

 

You're still asking this question. I'm saying there is no before, because time, as we perceive it, didn't exist.

 

 

 

 

And, the fact is, we can not observe what existed before anything existed.

 

Nobody has ever even made the claim that nothing existed before the singularity. Our universe might be one of infinite numbers of universes. It might have been birthed in a black hole, or a child of another universe. Anyways, the two things I know for sure are that big bang theory doesn't really care because it doesn't dive into the question of what was before, and that you'll continue to be out of your depths talking about this stuff if you're still stuck trying to explain/argue about space from a sequential, linear perspective of time. The universe has no such thing.

[BigRedBuster]

 

So, what existed before "whatever you want to call it" started?

 

You're still asking this question. I'm saying there is no before, because time, as we perceive it, didn't exist.

 

 

 

 

And, the fact is, we can not observe what existed before anything existed.

 

Nobody has ever even made the claim that nothing existed before the singularity. Our universe might be one of infinite numbers of universes. It might have been birthed in a black hole, or a child of another universe. Anyways, the two things I know for sure are that big bang theory doesn't really care because it doesn't dive into the question of what was before, and that you'll continue to be out of your depths talking about this stuff if you're still stuck trying to explain/argue about space from a sequential, linear perspective of time. The universe has no such thing.

 

So, something came out of absolute nothing.

 

This is a theory that scientists are incapable of reenacting or observing. Or...if I'm wrong, can you point me to a time when scientists created something completely out of nothing with no external force since an external force would have had to come from something that doesn't exist?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

A great place to start with physics is Stephen Hawking's books A Brief History of Time and The Universe In A Nutshell.

 

Hawking breaks it down well for the layman, making the concepts easy enough to understand for people without physics degrees.

 

You can pick up a copy (illustrated!) at Amazon for cheap.

 

Another great read is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which contains some now outdated string theory info, but was on the cutting edge back in the late 1990s. I sat in on one of Dr. Greene's lectures at Stanford back in the day, and was not lost at all with this material. It was one of the highlights of my time living in California.

To aid the discussion.

 

What do these two gentlemen believe existed before anything existed?

 

 

Absolutely nothing. Serious answer.

 

They have a way of explaining it that makes sense, even to a layman. Strongly recommend picking up Hawking's books (the one I linked is a two-books-in-one deal, and it's the one I have).

 

And, that's been observed by scientists.

[knapplc]

 

 

 

A great place to start with physics is Stephen Hawking's books A Brief History of Time and The Universe In A Nutshell.

 

Hawking breaks it down well for the layman, making the concepts easy enough to understand for people without physics degrees.

 

You can pick up a copy (illustrated!) at Amazon for cheap.

 

Another great read is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which contains some now outdated string theory info, but was on the cutting edge back in the late 1990s. I sat in on one of Dr. Greene's lectures at Stanford back in the day, and was not lost at all with this material. It was one of the highlights of my time living in California.

To aid the discussion.

 

What do these two gentlemen believe existed before anything existed?

 

 

Absolutely nothing. Serious answer.

 

They have a way of explaining it that makes sense, even to a layman. Strongly recommend picking up Hawking's books (the one I linked is a two-books-in-one deal, and it's the one I have).

 

And, that's been observed by scientists.

 

 

Why are you ignoring my road/beach/ocean analogy?

[zoogs]

These are not easy ideas to wrap one's head around, particularly without building up more of a background. As I'm not exactly a physicist I think the best I can do is reiterate what knapp said, and point you to those two authors who can provide some of that in layman's terms.

 

The BBT is not going to be overturned by a skeptical thought experiment.

 

Nor evolution, for that matter. Nor climate science. One of my big vexations is the extent to which science questions are put on the debate stage against thinking out loud. Knowledge requires background and science requires science.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

A great place to start with physics is Stephen Hawking's books A Brief History of Time and The Universe In A Nutshell.

 

Hawking breaks it down well for the layman, making the concepts easy enough to understand for people without physics degrees.

 

You can pick up a copy (illustrated!) at Amazon for cheap.

 

Another great read is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which contains some now outdated string theory info, but was on the cutting edge back in the late 1990s. I sat in on one of Dr. Greene's lectures at Stanford back in the day, and was not lost at all with this material. It was one of the highlights of my time living in California.

To aid the discussion.

 

What do these two gentlemen believe existed before anything existed?

 

 

Absolutely nothing. Serious answer.

 

They have a way of explaining it that makes sense, even to a layman. Strongly recommend picking up Hawking's books (the one I linked is a two-books-in-one deal, and it's the one I have).

 

And, that's been observed by scientists.

 

 

Why are you ignoring my road/beach/ocean analogy?

 

Because that doesn't have anything to do with my comments on the subject.

I'm not arguing about ANYTHING we have observed or assume happened after the great chemical reaction started. So, your road with cars and surfboards doesn't tell me anything other than now, there is a beach. It doesn't tell me what existed before the beach/ocean.