A Christian republic (POLL)

[knapplc]

1) What is wrong with the public school system?

2) Why are private schools better than public schools?

3) What have Unions done to make the public school situation worse?

4) What happens to students when the private school they attend fails?

5) How will people feel if, in a generation, secular private schools poach enough students from non-secular schools that non-secular schools collapse around the country?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

At some point people are going to realize that defunding public schools hurts them, too. At that point it'll be too late, as we'll have a generation of undereducated morons running around.

 

But hey, let's continue to think me first, country second. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I believe that's a part of a certain party's electoral strategy.

 

So..... allowing kids to get out of failing schools and into better schools is somehow reaching some goal of having an uneducated electorate?

 

 

No, but gutting funding to public education and offering prohibitively expensive or substandard private schooling as an alternative is.

 

This comment makes no sense.

 

So.....if I live in Louisiana but don't have money to get my kid out of the failing public school, that's OK. But, if I am given a voucher so my kid can go to a better private school, that is some how offering prohibitively expensive and substandard private schools?

[BigRedBuster]

1) What is wrong with the public school system?

2) Why are private schools better than public schools?

3) What have Unions done to make the public school situation worse?

4) What happens to students when the private school they attend fails?

5) How will people feel if, in a generation, secular private schools poach enough students from non-secular schools that non-secular schools collapse around the country?

#1, #2 and #3 should be asked by every state in the union.

 

Now, I have said very clearly many times on this board that I am in favor of public schools and I don't believe the vast majority of them are failing. I think many times this issue is blown out of proportion.

 

BUT....I'm not naive enough to not realize there are some situations in the country where the public school system IS failing the communities.

 

#4 They would obviously go to the better option.

 

#5 Here is something that gets lost in all of this. This doesn't have to mean all that public schools all of a sudden lose that money. If a state like Louisiana wants to all of a sudden get serious about improving their public schools, there is nothing stopping the state or federal government from pumping money into the system to make the changes.....even with a voucher system.

[knapplc]

Louisiana's school voucher program harms students.

Study 1

Study 2 and Data from MIT

 

Not really sure why Louisiana's system is being used as an example in favor of vouchers. It isn't improving things for students.

[knapplc]

 

1) What is wrong with the public school system?

2) Why are private schools better than public schools?

3) What have Unions done to make the public school situation worse?

4) What happens to students when the private school they attend fails?

5) How will people feel if, in a generation, secular private schools poach enough students from non-secular schools that non-secular schools collapse around the country?

#1, #2 and #3 should be asked by every state in the union.

 

Now, I have said very clearly many times on this board that I am in favor of public schools and I don't believe the vast majority of them are failing. I think many times this issue is blown out of proportion.

 

BUT....I'm not naive enough to not realize there are some situations in the country where the public school system IS failing the communities.

 

#4 They would obviously go to the better option.

 

#5 Here is something that gets lost in all of this. This doesn't have to mean all that public schools all of a sudden lose that money. If a state like Louisiana wants to all of a sudden get serious about improving their public schools, there is nothing stopping the state or federal government from pumping money into the system to make the changes.....even with a voucher system.

 

 

Maybe there's a misunderstanding. I'm hearing that "public schools are failing our students."

 

Which public schools? Where? How are they failing students?

 

I'm asking for specifics from people espousing the voucher system as a needed alternative.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

1) What is wrong with the public school system?

2) Why are private schools better than public schools?

3) What have Unions done to make the public school situation worse?

4) What happens to students when the private school they attend fails?

5) How will people feel if, in a generation, secular private schools poach enough students from non-secular schools that non-secular schools collapse around the country?

#1, #2 and #3 should be asked by every state in the union.

 

Now, I have said very clearly many times on this board that I am in favor of public schools and I don't believe the vast majority of them are failing. I think many times this issue is blown out of proportion.

 

BUT....I'm not naive enough to not realize there are some situations in the country where the public school system IS failing the communities.

 

#4 They would obviously go to the better option.

 

#5 Here is something that gets lost in all of this. This doesn't have to mean all that public schools all of a sudden lose that money. If a state like Louisiana wants to all of a sudden get serious about improving their public schools, there is nothing stopping the state or federal government from pumping money into the system to make the changes.....even with a voucher system.

 

 

Maybe there's a misunderstanding. I'm hearing that "public schools are failing our students."

 

Which public schools? Where? How are they failing students?

 

I'm asking for specifics from people espousing the voucher system as a needed alternative.

 

I've stated many times in this thread the example of the Louisiana public educational system.

 

It ranks 51st in the nation on safety for the students and 49th in the nation on school system. LINK The methodology to their rankings is described in the link.

 

I guess if that's not an example of failing public schools, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[BigRedBuster]

Louisiana's school voucher program harms students.

 

Study 1

 

Study 2 and Data from MIT

 

Not really sure why Louisiana's system is being used as an example in favor of vouchers. It isn't improving things for students.

Maybe we should look at also improving the voucher system.

 

Also, the parents can use this information and make a choice. If they believe their child will be better in the public school, then keep them there. They aren't FORCED to send their kids to the private school.

[knapplc]

So, there are bad schools in Louisiana, therefore the whole country should use a voucher system that - in Louisiana - is failing students worse than their original schools?

 

That doesn't make any sense. That seems like a Louisiana problem that Louisiana should fix, not the whole country.

[BigRedBuster]

An interesting quote from the first link Knapp posted.

 

Specifically, the new research found that students who were performing at roughly the 50th percentile in their public schools – meaning their performance was average – fell 24 percentile points in math and 8 percentile points in reading below their public school counterparts after one year in private school.

During their second year in private school, the downward trend continued in math, but rebounded some in reading.

An additional notable finding: The academic achievement of students in public school who did not receive a voucher and therefore stayed in public school actually improved between the first and second year, especially in math.

Researchers surmised that the disparity was likely due to market-based pressures, though they couldn't be certain.

"But our results suggest that public schools facing competitive pressures from the program may have maintained their previous level of performance or improved over time," said Wolf, a University of Arkansas education professor​.

 

 

[TGHusker]

At some point people are going to realize that defunding public schools hurts them, too. At that point it'll be too late, as we'll have a generation of undereducated morons running around.

 

But hey, let's continue to think me first, country second. What could possibly go wrong?

I think we need both systems. I'll use our family as an example. We have 2 sons - one went to a private Christian school years 7 grade through high school. We didn't like the huge mega school environment he would have been in the public school. He excelled in everyway possible - National Merit Scholar which led to a full ride to a very good private college. Our younger son had a choice -the same Christian school or a smaller public school . His different personality, motivation, etc led us with discussion with him to have him attend the public school from grades 8- 12. We decided to move from the mega school wt 1200-1400 per grade level to the smaller district of 300/grade level. He excelled there, becoming a leader in his class, finishing in the top 4 in the State Debate Championship, & his Christian faith was strengthen as he was challenged by being around kids and teachers who were exactly like him (kind of like being on Husker Board). We were blessed to be able to afford the private school when needed and also to be able to move to the smaller district. Our kids excelled because of their God given talents, hard work and because we as parents were involved - regardless of the school type - public or private.

 

Unfortunately many parents don't have the options we had or could take advantage of those options. I do believe vouchers are a good things where schools are failing.

 

Hopefully competition drives improvement. Why should a talented student be held hostage by a poor performing school. You wouldn't continually send your child to a poor doctor why would you do the same with their school ? Too many people are trapped in this public school monopoly. They cannot afford a private school or afford to move into a new district. Remember this country started out wt a private school system - most education was done by churches & other religious institutions or in homes. Then along came John Dewey and the education in America was fundamentally changed - good, bad or indifferent. Our society is much more diverse than it was in the beginning and even in John Dewey's day - so public ed will not go away regardless of what J Falwell Jr says or any voucher system does.

IF Liberals believe in choice or so they say, then give the educationally disadvantage a choice. Vouchers help in that end. Remember there are private schools that aren't religious base also. That is a choice as well. If the public education system, their union affiliates in the NEA and politicians who believe in only the status quo don't take steps to improve education in these educational 'dead zones' of poor schools then there is no hope in the system. In Oklahoma we throw money after fists full of money at the problems and this year the voters had enough and turned down a state wide amendment to the constitution to increase sales tax targeted just for ed. We see money going to sports facilities that a good college would envy, too much admin overlap wt overpaid administrators, etc. Reform the system and make education about education, allowing free thought of ideas and improve the outcome. Then maybe vouchers may not be needed.

[TGHusker]

Tulsa has had many schools categorized by a D or F scoring system a few years ago. There have been charter schools that have been tried to help. We have a number of very good private schools in Tulsa metro but again most are pretty pricy.

[Landlord]

My point in bringing this up is that there are many who lump all Christians in the six-24-hour-days-of-creation camp (and call them creationists). But that's simply not the case with all Christians. As for me, I believe that God created the universe, but not necessarily in a week. I suspect that the Hebrew word yom (days) in Genesis has been misunderstood to mean a 24 hour day. Maybe yom was intended to mean "periods" of activity. And it seems to make sense to me that, rather than sit back and passively watch his creation from the outside, God played an active roll in the evolution and development of the earth. But that's just my own opinion and speculation.

 

 

Then you don't believe in creationism.

[BigRedBuster]

 

My point in bringing this up is that there are many who lump all Christians in the six-24-hour-days-of-creation camp (and call them creationists). But that's simply not the case with all Christians. As for me, I believe that God created the universe, but not necessarily in a week. I suspect that the Hebrew word yom (days) in Genesis has been misunderstood to mean a 24 hour day. Maybe yom was intended to mean "periods" of activity. And it seems to make sense to me that, rather than sit back and passively watch his creation from the outside, God played an active roll in the evolution and development of the earth. But that's just my own opinion and speculation.

 

 

Then you don't believe in creationism.

 

wrong.

[knapplc]

Which then begs the question:

 

Which version of Creationism should be taught in schools?

[BigRedBuster]

Which then begs the question:

 

Which version of Creationism should be taught in schools?

I personally don't want Creationism taught in great detail in public schools. Not because of some fear of Christian indoctrination of young minds or fear of someone's constitutional rights are going to be violated because the word is uttered inside a public educational system.

 

I would prefer the details of it taught by people who believe it.

 

I have absolutely no problem with teaching evolution and at the same time the teacher expressing that some people believe there is a higher power also involved. You don't need to name that higher power as "God" or "Allah" or the "Jolly Green Giant".

 

The all or absolute nothing is what I have a problem with in this discussion.

 

PS...I would have a major problem with any school system teaching ONLY creationism and not teaching evolution.