Moiraine Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What does what zoogs posted have to do with military service? I've read Takoda's reply 3 times now and still don't get it. Link to comment
TAKODA Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Well, if I mis read the intent, shame on me, but I took it as if because I stated "happiness is a way of life, not a destination", it was showing my lack of feelings for the current situation, thus, I am ignoring those affected. Not by a long shot, thus my comments showing my sacrifice to allow the rights we enjoy, to carry on! Edited to complete middle sentence! Link to comment
zoogs Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Definitely do not want to make this a military service thing. We're already in a world where support for Trump is being conflated with patriotism to a scary degree. I just want people who do care about those who are under threat right now to take consistent stances. My argument is that "Hey, give Trump a chance" or "things are fine for me" -- a very common refrain not limited to here -- is not at all consistent. Link to comment
TAKODA Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Definitely do not want to make this a military service thing. We're already in a world where support for Trump is being conflated with patriotism to a scary degree.I just want people who do care about those who are under threat right now to take consistent stances. My argument is that "Hey, give Trump a chance" or "things are fine for me" -- a very common refrain not limited to here -- is not at all consistent. Not trying to make it a military service thing Zoogs, but yes, we do have to go on. Since the inception of the human race, people have suffered, no matter who was the chosen leaders. My patriotism and support, is firmly grounded for my Country, not to an individual. While DT is doing a good enough job on his own of showing his inner self, your demonizing him does nothing more than prop up those who voted for him, I think it is becoming counter productive to your own cause! Sh*t will come out in the wash, if people let things evolve a bit, We are seeing some of it already (court reviews and other). Have to hit the sheets, maybe I need to avoid all the P £ R threads because obviously, my opinions and input, or even how I read things stated, appear to be adverse to the popular opinion, or maybe I just don't speak the same language as those here at HB? 1 Link to comment
zoogs Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 While DT is doing a good enough job on his own of showing his inner self, your demonizing him does nothing more than prop up those who voted for him, I think it is becoming counter productive to your own cause! How so? He should be opposed. I'm curious how accepting the way things are or letting them happen without complaint would advance my cause. He is certainly not being stopped automatically. Link to comment
Making Chimichangas Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I think, and I'm just going off of observation from society, based on news stories, etc... People voted for Trump because they are angry. They are angry because The economy has been more down than up Many people have seen their jobs disappear, their hours get reduced, their pay gets cut, and they're having to work a lot longer to maintain the same lifestyle Elite, coastal liberals often talk down to people in "fly over country" Health care costs are still raging out of control A single medicine can cost someone 3,000+ a month or more, a lot more Traditional marriage folks think the "gay agenda" is destroying America Black Lives Matter And on and on... The people who are angry, are often justified and have reason to be angry. The problem is, most of them misplace that anger and scape-goat people who are literally blameless. Because right, it's the Black Lives Matter, gay, transgender, immigrant, atheist who is taking hours away from you. It's that person who's shipping your job overseas. That's the individual who cut your pay to make more profits for himself. People are angry and they voted for Trump because they just couldn't rationalize blaming the white privileged, billionaire class, and their rapacious greed, for their woes. So they blame people who have zero real power and vote for a corrupt fascist and despot because he stokes their inherent fears based on racism, homophobia, and religious bigotry. 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 While DT is doing a good enough job on his own of showing his inner self, your demonizing him does nothing more than prop up those who voted for him, I think it is becoming counter productive to your own cause! Sh*t will come out in the wash, if people let things evolve a bit, We are seeing some of it already (court reviews and other). To be honest, when I read this it reminded me of the criticisms against Martin Luther King Jr. during the heights of his civil rights activism. 1 Link to comment
ColoNoCoHusker Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I think, and I'm just going off of observation from society, based on news stories, etc... People voted for Trump because they are angry. They are angry because The economy has been more down than up Many people have seen their jobs disappear, their hours get reduced, their pay gets cut, and they're having to work a lot longer to maintain the same lifestyle Elite, coastal liberals often talk down to people in "fly over country" Health care costs are still raging out of control A single medicine can cost someone 3,000+ a month or more, a lot more Traditional marriage folks think the "gay agenda" is destroying America Black Lives Matter And on and on... The people who are angry, are often justified and have reason to be angry. The problem is, most of them misplace that anger and scape-goat people who are literally blameless. Because right, it's the Black Lives Matter, gay, transgender, immigrant, atheist who is taking hours away from you. It's that person who's shipping your job overseas. That's the individual who cut your pay to make more profits for himself. People are angry and they voted for Trump because they just couldn't rationalize blaming the white privileged, billionaire class, and their rapacious greed, for their woes. So they blame people who have zero real power and vote for a corrupt fascist and despot because he stokes their inherent fears based on racism, homophobia, and religious bigotry. I have no issue holding Trump supporters to task for their decision. I can certainly be overzealous in that endeavor. However, I think many supported Trump out of ignorance (willful or otherwise) or indifference as opposed to fear or malice. In my experience, it is not the virulent racist/bigot that is the majority in the room. On any given civil/individual rights issue, the majority by far are people who are ignorant/indifferent to the situation. This applies to LGBTQ+, BLM, women's rights, etc. Most commonly this is due to lack of empathy, lack of belief, or lack visibility. In most cases, there's an opportunity to educate and get people to amend their views, even if slightly. I think Occum's razor & Hanlon's razor apply to this situation in equal measure: "When faced with competing hypotheses, select the one that makes the fewest assumptions" and "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence". I applaud, support, and share your indignation, btw. I think it's important to avoid painting too broadly as that will cost as much as not painting at all... 3 Link to comment
TAKODA Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Making Chimichangas post above is well written and I think hit on a lot of solid points but I also would add that the phenomana that occurred in the Presidential election where we as a country really did not have the voting options we would like to have had, and from there, a large volume of citizens got sick of the press proclaiming Hillary was the future. The press (rightfull so or not), took it upon themselves to report everything and anything negative towards DT, and for whatever reason, the populous took the underdog and his non-conventional approach, over the political speak that they were obviously tired of hearing. Zoogs, the point I am attempting to make is that DT is stepping in it daily, and it will reach a point of no return for all, even those who voted for him, unless he changes course. We seen the election phenomana occur and it is very possible, that people will tire of all the massive protest about anything and everything (justified or not), and once again champion the underdog. Do as you wish, as I am not telling you do anything differnt, but please don't advocate that because some of us are not vehemently protesting as you and a majority here in these threads are doing, that we do not care, as you suggested in your initial post. Many have sacrificed much, for the rights afforded to all people, we currently have. 1 Link to comment
zoogs Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I see no evidence that DT is heading towards a point of no return. Quite the opposite: the evidence so far largely suggests his party is bending to his will. He is the President of the United States and has brought people like House Speaker Paul Ryan to heel. Many of the populace are arguing for tolerating him and criticizing every protest that springs up against him. There is no sensible interpretation of the world in which he is an underdog. I'm happy for people to care about the rights of those under threat. However, shrugging at Trump -- I'm not saying that's what you are doing; it's unclear what your stance is exactly -- is just not consistent with it. One does not have to vehemently engage in protest to be opposed to Trump. However, I'd encourage those who are basically fine with him to consider if the rights of those marginalized categories in society are currently as important to them as they are claiming. Link to comment
Danny Bateman Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 To supplement what zoogs said, there is definitely a degree of trepidation that comes with breaking with Trump. I wake up today and he's attacked two sitting US Senators from the safety of his Twitter. One for suggesting his SC pick criticized him, and another, a POW who is the chairmen of the Senate Armed Forces Committee, for daring to criticize a military operation. There are few good men and women in the Republican party right now willing to go against Trump. This is important because they're the only ones with the power to take any real action against Trump. Ryan applauds his immigration ban. Chaffetz defers every SINGLE time Trump does something worth looking into. Thankfully we have committees and federal agencies looking into possible connections to Moscow. To some degree, I agree with TAKODA. The office tends to reveal who you really are, and if he keeps this up, it will eventually bite Trump. But none of this absolves guys like Ryan and Chaffetz for lacking the spine to have some integrity and occasionally act as a check on POTUS. If they won't do it, the task falls on us to tell Trump when he is wrong. 3 Link to comment
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