The Religious Discussion of 2012

[JJ Husker]

Can/should we really leave these matters up to the individuals moral compass?

 

No. And they aren't. We leave these matters to our social justice system. Where we as people...at least in this country...make the decisions that we all agree to live by. See my above quote.

And these morals and societal laws change over time. When in one time where slavery was accepted (and even backed by Bible verses)...another time decides that it is immoral for a person to own another.

 

So our legal and justice systems determine what is moral? If there is no law against a certain behavior, you would consider that action moral, at least until there is a law against it?

[JJ Husker]

'Sin' is a term used by religion to manipulate people. Furthering the guilt and shame a virtues garbage. There are always 'sins' that are just part of being human. And they need to find some method of convincing people that they are ALL sinners. There is even the concept of 'original sin' stating that being a decendent of Adam, you are guilty of the 'sin' of the fall of man from the moment of conception. Guilty for being born. How sweet.

 

The Pope will add 'new sins' every few years. And what a 'sin' is is hardly absolute. It changes as time moves on.

 

I do not belive in 'sin.' I know what is right or wrong, and I can not be guilty of anything for just having a thought.

 

I disagree. I think sin is absolute. What is variable and changing is what man determines is or is not a sin. Just because some men used Bible passages to justify slavery does not validate the action one way or the other. I think you are confusing the actions and determinations of men with what is really right or wrong in God's eyes. Or you are failing to acknowledge that there is a higher power for determining these things than mere men.

[strigori]

'Sin' is a term used by religion to manipulate people. Furthering the guilt and shame a virtues garbage. There are always 'sins' that are just part of being human. And they need to find some method of convincing people that they are ALL sinners. There is even the concept of 'original sin' stating that being a decendent of Adam, you are guilty of the 'sin' of the fall of man from the moment of conception. Guilty for being born. How sweet.

 

The Pope will add 'new sins' every few years. And what a 'sin' is is hardly absolute. It changes as time moves on.

 

I do not belive in 'sin.' I know what is right or wrong, and I can not be guilty of anything for just having a thought.

 

I disagree. I think sin is absolute. What is variable and changing is what man determines is or is not a sin. Just because some men used Bible passages to justify slavery does not validate the action one way or the other. I think you are confusing the actions and determinations of men with what is really right or wrong in God's eyes. Or you are failing to acknowledge that there is a higher power for determining these things than mere men.

I do not buy in to either 'sin is absolute' or a higher power who makes arbitrary rules. God is even described as having atributes that are among the '7 deadly sins' Such as "For I am a Jelous God, and you shall have no others before Me" Greed, as in for everyone's attention, could be another as continual groveling, and begging is required so He doesnt decide to punish you for all eternity.

 

You have a faith that has only existed for a small fraction of the time humanity has existed. So everyone before Jesus, or on other continents for that matter, is condemed to hell for 'living in sin' or being born into 'original sin.' Can't buy that. And technically, through out most of Christianity's time (and by some now even) you avatar would fall into the realm of 'sinfull'

[walksalone]

“Father, bless me for I have sinned, I did an original sin… I poked a badger with a spoon.”

 

 

~ Eddie Izzard

[HuskerShark]

'Sin' is a term used by religion to manipulate people. Furthering the guilt and shame a virtues garbage. There are always 'sins' that are just part of being human. And they need to find some method of convincing people that they are ALL sinners. There is even the concept of 'original sin' stating that being a decendent of Adam, you are guilty of the 'sin' of the fall of man from the moment of conception. Guilty for being born. How sweet.

 

The Pope will add 'new sins' every few years. And what a 'sin' is is hardly absolute. It changes as time moves on.

 

I do not belive in 'sin.' I know what is right or wrong, and I can not be guilty of anything for just having a thought.

 

I disagree. I think sin is absolute. What is variable and changing is what man determines is or is not a sin. Just because some men used Bible passages to justify slavery does not validate the action one way or the other. I think you are confusing the actions and determinations of men with what is really right or wrong in God's eyes. Or you are failing to acknowledge that there is a higher power for determining these things than mere men.

I do not buy in to either 'sin is absolute' or a higher power who makes arbitrary rules. God is even described as having atributes that are among the '7 deadly sins' Such as "For I am a Jelous God, and you shall have no others before Me" Greed, as in for everyone's attention, could be another as continual groveling, and begging is required so He doesnt decide to punish you for all eternity.

 

You have a faith that has only existed for a small fraction of the time humanity has existed. So everyone before Jesus, or on other continents for that matter, is condemed to hell for 'living in sin' or being born into 'original sin.' Can't buy that. And technically, through out most of Christianity's time (and by some now even) you avatar would fall into the realm of 'sinfull'

 

You don't have to beg for anything. You just have to show God that you love Him and trust him, and that is said to be your admittance into Heaven.

 

There is a biblical saying that my friend always tells me: Salvation is not in the works.

 

If you don't know what that means, I will spell it out for you. The works refers to the things that we do in our lifetime. Therefore, your salvation does not depend on what amount of sin that you carry, but rather if you trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. That's not to say that the works have nothing to do with your right to eternal life. My interpretation of the Bible is that God wants us to be living examples of His word. Therefore if you are a horrible person and murder others and commit rape, etc. then it could be said that you are not a living example of His word and do not fully trust and believe in Him. At least that is what I get out of that portion of the Bible when I read it.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying these things to try and force anyone to believe, just clearing up the misconception that strigori stated.

[walksalone]

You don't have to beg for anything. You just have to show God that you love Him and trust him, and that is said to be your admittance into Heaven.

 

There is a biblical saying that my friend always tells me: Salvation is not in the works.

 

If you don't know what that means, I will spell it out for you. The works refers to the things that we do in our lifetime. Therefore, your salvation does not depend on what amount of sin that you carry, but rather if you trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. That's not to say that the works have nothing to do with your right to eternal life. My interpretation of the Bible is that God wants us to be living examples of His word. Therefore if you are a horrible person and murder others and commit rape, etc. then it could be said that you are not a living example of His word and do not fully trust and believe in Him. At least that is what I get out of that portion of the Bible when I read it.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying these things to try and force anyone to believe, just clearing up the misconception that strigori stated.

 

So I could shoot dozens of small children in the back of the head with a large caliber handgun, sodomize a group of senior citizens, and then go hit a bunch of pregnant women in the stomach with a baseball bat, but as long as I repent and take the lord as my savior before I die, all the atrocities I've committed, are erased?

 

So Hitler, orchestrates a plan to kill millions, but as long as he repents before god, he's ok??

 

I just really have a hard time believing that....

[HuskerShark]

You don't have to beg for anything. You just have to show God that you love Him and trust him, and that is said to be your admittance into Heaven.

 

There is a biblical saying that my friend always tells me: Salvation is not in the works.

 

If you don't know what that means, I will spell it out for you. The works refers to the things that we do in our lifetime. Therefore, your salvation does not depend on what amount of sin that you carry, but rather if you trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. That's not to say that the works have nothing to do with your right to eternal life. My interpretation of the Bible is that God wants us to be living examples of His word. Therefore if you are a horrible person and murder others and commit rape, etc. then it could be said that you are not a living example of His word and do not fully trust and believe in Him and would probably be sent to Hell. At least that is what I get out of that portion of the Bible when I read it.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying these things to try and force anyone to believe, just clearing up the misconception that strigori stated.

 

So I could shoot dozens of small children in the back of the head with a large caliber handgun, sodomize a group of senior citizens, and then go hit a bunch of pregnant women in the stomach with a baseball bat, but as long as I repent and take the lord as my savior before I die, all the atrocities I've committed, are erased?

 

So Hitler, orchestrates a plan to kill millions, but as long as he repents before god, he's ok??

 

I just really have a hard time believing that....

Try rereading the bolded part again. I added another little line.

[strigori]

'Sin' is a term used by religion to manipulate people. Furthering the guilt and shame a virtues garbage. There are always 'sins' that are just part of being human. And they need to find some method of convincing people that they are ALL sinners. There is even the concept of 'original sin' stating that being a decendent of Adam, you are guilty of the 'sin' of the fall of man from the moment of conception. Guilty for being born. How sweet.

 

The Pope will add 'new sins' every few years. And what a 'sin' is is hardly absolute. It changes as time moves on.

 

I do not belive in 'sin.' I know what is right or wrong, and I can not be guilty of anything for just having a thought.

 

I disagree. I think sin is absolute. What is variable and changing is what man determines is or is not a sin. Just because some men used Bible passages to justify slavery does not validate the action one way or the other. I think you are confusing the actions and determinations of men with what is really right or wrong in God's eyes. Or you are failing to acknowledge that there is a higher power for determining these things than mere men.

I do not buy in to either 'sin is absolute' or a higher power who makes arbitrary rules. God is even described as having atributes that are among the '7 deadly sins' Such as "For I am a Jelous God, and you shall have no others before Me" Greed, as in for everyone's attention, could be another as continual groveling, and begging is required so He doesnt decide to punish you for all eternity.

 

You have a faith that has only existed for a small fraction of the time humanity has existed. So everyone before Jesus, or on other continents for that matter, is condemed to hell for 'living in sin' or being born into 'original sin.' Can't buy that. And technically, through out most of Christianity's time (and by some now even) you avatar would fall into the realm of 'sinfull'

 

You don't have to beg for anything. You just have to show God that you love Him and trust him, and that is said to be your admittance into Heaven.

 

There is a biblical saying that my friend always tells me: Salvation is not in the works.

 

If you don't know what that means, I will spell it out for you. The works refers to the things that we do in our lifetime. Therefore, your salvation does not depend on what amount of sin that you carry, but rather if you trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. That's not to say that the works have nothing to do with your right to eternal life. My interpretation of the Bible is that God wants us to be living examples of His word. Therefore if you are a horrible person and murder others and commit rape, etc. then it could be said that you are not a living example of His word and do not fully trust and believe in Him. At least that is what I get out of that portion of the Bible when I read it.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying these things to try and force anyone to believe, just clearing up the misconception that strigori stated.

That is not what Christians teach. They teach that only through begging forgiveness for your sins, and through Jesus' sacrifice can one be admited through the gates of heaven. Hence the continual begging forgiveness for 'sins.' I did go through all that growing up, did the 'confirmation' classes and the whole comunion thing, I know the whole sales pitch.

[HuskerShark]

'Sin' is a term used by religion to manipulate people. Furthering the guilt and shame a virtues garbage. There are always 'sins' that are just part of being human. And they need to find some method of convincing people that they are ALL sinners. There is even the concept of 'original sin' stating that being a decendent of Adam, you are guilty of the 'sin' of the fall of man from the moment of conception. Guilty for being born. How sweet.

 

The Pope will add 'new sins' every few years. And what a 'sin' is is hardly absolute. It changes as time moves on.

 

I do not belive in 'sin.' I know what is right or wrong, and I can not be guilty of anything for just having a thought.

 

I disagree. I think sin is absolute. What is variable and changing is what man determines is or is not a sin. Just because some men used Bible passages to justify slavery does not validate the action one way or the other. I think you are confusing the actions and determinations of men with what is really right or wrong in God's eyes. Or you are failing to acknowledge that there is a higher power for determining these things than mere men.

I do not buy in to either 'sin is absolute' or a higher power who makes arbitrary rules. God is even described as having atributes that are among the '7 deadly sins' Such as "For I am a Jelous God, and you shall have no others before Me" Greed, as in for everyone's attention, could be another as continual groveling, and begging is required so He doesnt decide to punish you for all eternity.

 

You have a faith that has only existed for a small fraction of the time humanity has existed. So everyone before Jesus, or on other continents for that matter, is condemed to hell for 'living in sin' or being born into 'original sin.' Can't buy that. And technically, through out most of Christianity's time (and by some now even) you avatar would fall into the realm of 'sinfull'

 

You don't have to beg for anything. You just have to show God that you love Him and trust him, and that is said to be your admittance into Heaven.

 

There is a biblical saying that my friend always tells me: Salvation is not in the works.

 

If you don't know what that means, I will spell it out for you. The works refers to the things that we do in our lifetime. Therefore, your salvation does not depend on what amount of sin that you carry, but rather if you trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. That's not to say that the works have nothing to do with your right to eternal life. My interpretation of the Bible is that God wants us to be living examples of His word. Therefore if you are a horrible person and murder others and commit rape, etc. then it could be said that you are not a living example of His word and do not fully trust and believe in Him. At least that is what I get out of that portion of the Bible when I read it.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying these things to try and force anyone to believe, just clearing up the misconception that strigori stated.

That is not what Christians teach. They teach that only through begging forgiveness for your sins, and through Jesus' sacrifice can one be admited through the gates of heaven. Hence the continual begging forgiveness for 'sins.' I did go through all that growing up, did the 'confirmation' classes and the whole comunion thing, I know the whole sales pitch.

I would not call it begging for forgiveness. That puts it in a bad light. All that is really asked is that you acknowledge that you have sinned and believe in Jesus. That's it.

 

Unless you are Catholic. Then you could say they have to beg for forgiveness. But Catholics have their own way of manipulating Christianity to fit what they want out of a religion, so take that at face value.

[Hoosker]

What if you try to live a good life, try to always do what you think is right, and just believe that you'll be rewarded somehow after you die? Why does the whole Lord and Savior idea have to be brought into anything if people are capable of passing down good, wholesome values to their children without involving an all-powerful man in the clouds? Is it necessary to living the life we want to live?

[JJ Husker]

What if you try to live a good life, try to always do what you think is right, and just believe that you'll be rewarded somehow after you die? Why does the whole Lord and Savior idea have to be brought into anything if people are capable of passing down good, wholesome values to their children without involving an all-powerful man in the clouds? Is it necessary to living the life we want to live?

 

Nobody is saying you can't be a good person with good values without going to church or otherwise living a religious life. But my question is; what kind of reward can you be expecting to receive at the end of your life and exactly who is going to bestow that reward? Sounds kind of like you expect to win the game without putting in the required work in practice.

[carlfense]

But my question is; what kind of reward can you be expecting to receive at the end of your life and exactly who is going to bestow that reward?

I expect to receive my rewards during my life, not after I'm underground. The whole idea of an afterlife seems bizarre and a little sad to me.

 

Edit: Fixed a typo.

[bennychico11]

So our legal and justice systems determine what is moral? If there is no law against a certain behavior, you would consider that action moral, at least until there is a law against it?

 

No, my point was our social system determines our morality. That ranges from how you are raised, what part of the country you live in, your influences from people around you, etc. That even extends to the laws we the people put in place. All of it affects how our morals are developed...and they change over time.

[bennychico11]

'Sin' is a term used by religion to manipulate people. Furthering the guilt and shame a virtues garbage. There are always 'sins' that are just part of being human. And they need to find some method of convincing people that they are ALL sinners. There is even the concept of 'original sin' stating that being a decendent of Adam, you are guilty of the 'sin' of the fall of man from the moment of conception. Guilty for being born. How sweet.

 

The Pope will add 'new sins' every few years. And what a 'sin' is is hardly absolute. It changes as time moves on.

 

I do not belive in 'sin.' I know what is right or wrong, and I can not be guilty of anything for just having a thought.

 

I disagree. I think sin is absolute. What is variable and changing is what man determines is or is not a sin. Just because some men used Bible passages to justify slavery does not validate the action one way or the other. I think you are confusing the actions and determinations of men with what is really right or wrong in God's eyes. Or you are failing to acknowledge that there is a higher power for determining these things than mere men.

I do not buy in to either 'sin is absolute' or a higher power who makes arbitrary rules. God is even described as having atributes that are among the '7 deadly sins' Such as "For I am a Jelous God, and you shall have no others before Me" Greed, as in for everyone's attention, could be another as continual groveling, and begging is required so He doesnt decide to punish you for all eternity.

 

You have a faith that has only existed for a small fraction of the time humanity has existed. So everyone before Jesus, or on other continents for that matter, is condemed to hell for 'living in sin' or being born into 'original sin.' Can't buy that. And technically, through out most of Christianity's time (and by some now even) you avatar would fall into the realm of 'sinfull'

 

You don't have to beg for anything. You just have to show God that you love Him and trust him, and that is said to be your admittance into Heaven.

 

There is a biblical saying that my friend always tells me: Salvation is not in the works.

 

If you don't know what that means, I will spell it out for you. The works refers to the things that we do in our lifetime. Therefore, your salvation does not depend on what amount of sin that you carry, but rather if you trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your savior. That's not to say that the works have nothing to do with your right to eternal life. My interpretation of the Bible is that God wants us to be living examples of His word. Therefore if you are a horrible person and murder others and commit rape, etc. then it could be said that you are not a living example of His word and do not fully trust and believe in Him. At least that is what I get out of that portion of the Bible when I read it.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying these things to try and force anyone to believe, just clearing up the misconception that strigori stated.

 

But your quote goes the other way too. Those who live a great life, love everyone, help the homeless, donate time and money to worthy causes, etc...but just don't happen to believe Jesus is their savior, means they are going to hell. In other words, your god cares more about what you believe and not your actions. Why is that a quality you want in a god?

[HuskerShark]

But my question is; what kind of reward can you be expecting to receive at the end of your life and exactly who is going to bestow that reward?

I expect to receive my rewards during my life, not after I'm underground. The whole idea of an afterlife is seems bizarre and a little sad to me.

I guess we will all find out someday. There have been numerous accounts of people who have died, been brought back to life, and said that while they were dead they saw a bright white light. If you have never heard them, you should do a quick search. It really is an amazing thing. Of course, cynical non-believers will attribute the white light to chemcals being released as the brain shuts down. As we've all seen on this board, non-believers find any reason they can to dismiss things like that and attribute it to "science."

 

The soul is an energy, and it will still exist long after we are dead.