Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground" in FL

[Ziggy]

Two men get into a (completely avoidable) physical altercation where one of them ends up dead. It seems like the killer should be guilty of something and that's what surprises me the most. Not murder, probably not manslaughter, but surely something would fit.

 

Also, I feel like this has gotten more coverage because it was a gun that was used and not because of race. Had Zimmerman reached around for a brick to hit Martin in the head with and the trauma killed him, I don't think this is nearly the divisive issue that it's become.

 

I agree the altercation is completely avoidable. But a person should be given the ability to defend themselves if they feel they are in that grave of danger. It would be like saying if a bear attacks you, you will be held legally responsible for killing the bear. All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight, and slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete walk way. If those accounts are accurate, Martin is no longer a unarmed kid, he is a man using concrete as a weapon to physically harm another human with the possibility of killing Zimmerman. If the fight got broken up before Zimmerman shot Martin, it is conceivable that Martin could have been charged with attempted murder/manslaughter.

 

I disagree with your second statement. The coverage was caused mainly because of the race of the two individuals, and was inflamed because of the media on both sides, and people like the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton. That lead to people from the white people delegation becoming pissed that Zimmerman was also Hispanic, but every news cast labeled him as white.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/race_buzzards_circle_trayvon_GjszYV5diCTZezdmxbrLON

[knapplc]

All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight, and slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete walk way. If those accounts are accurate, Martin is no longer a unarmed kid, he is a man using concrete as a weapon to physically harm another human with the possibility of killing Zimmerman. If the fight got broken up before Zimmerman shot Martin, it is conceivable that Martin could have been charged with attempted murder/manslaughter.

 

You mean aside from the fact that the only person with a gun pursued and confronted the only person without a gun? That evidence is kinda crucial, and paints a very different picture of the situation. It's really hard not to paint Zimmerman as the aggressor here with the available information.

[carlfense]

All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight . . .

Wait . . . what? Zimmerman pursued Martin over the instructions of a dispatcher, right? If so, how can you even begin to claim that "all of the available information and evidence pointed towards Martin being the aggressor . . ."?

 

Edit: knapplc got there first. What he said.

[knapplc]

Understandable, but does turning issues like this into something about race allow old wombs to heal? It seems counterproductive. I grew up in an area that would be defined as a melting pot (Whites, blacks, Hispanics, Orientals) and it was extremely rare that race was ever an issue. I don't see this as the case, but maybe growing up in a friendly environment, with a variety of ethnic backgrounds has blinded me to some of the racial tension across the rest of the country. Where I grew up, and with those of us in the area, it just wasn't an issue....

 

I agree that non-race-related issues turned into a race issue is counterproductive, but we really have no idea what was going through the minds of Martin or Zimmerman. I think "Did Martin die because he's Black?" is a question we should ask ourselves in light of the evidence. When a kid goes out to buy candy and a drink, then ends up dead, with a really shaky explanation for how/why it happened, that's definitely a question that should come up.

 

It is not the onlyquestion that should come up, though, and that's what I think you're getting at. Tons of things could have happened in the few minutes between the 911 call and the shot being fired, including any number of aggressive actions on the part of Martin. So we can't convict Zimmerman of anything other than pulling the trigger and ignoring 911 advice to leave the situation alone. It's not Zimmerman's fault that Florida has stupid laws, and under that law, he's innocent. But his intent... that we'll never know. And it bears pondering.

 

 

 

 

 

There's another thing that is important to remember, and Ziggy kinda hit along those lines a couple of posts ago. The press is pushing this racial thing in this case with nothing to go on, and they're doing it because it riles up both sides of the race issue, and they get more eyeballs on their screen. There will always be fringe nutters like Al Sharpton and his ilk prattling on about this stuff, but the press should be responsible enough not to make that the focus of this case. They put a mic in front of these people and give them air time because it incites a reaction, and that reaction is good for business.

 

It's up to the news consumer to sift through the nonsense and ignore what's irrelevant, and that race-baiting is entirely irrelevant to the situation. I wish our press had more integrity. Failing that, I wish our citizens had more common sense. Both are lacking.

[ADS]

All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight . . .

Wait . . . what? Zimmerman pursued Martin over the instructions of a dispatcher, right? If so, how can you even begin to claim that "all of the available information and evidence pointed towards Martin being the aggressor . . ."?

 

Edit: knapplc got there first. What he said.

Yeah, I'm with carl and knapp. The dispatch told Zimmerman not to pursue Martin. He did, ends up getting in a fight with him and Martin ends up dead. Why did he have to pursue Martin? Just leave it to the actual police to check the situation out. He sounds like he may have either been a little power trip because he's this "neighborhood watch" or just really that dumb.

[Junior]

http://www.foxnews.c...silence-hannity

 

HANNITY: A lot of this case legally -- and we are going to get to Mark in a few minutes here and ask him about a lot of legal aspects, because there are so many of them in this case -- has to do with stand your ground. You have heard a lot about it. And I was just curious, prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard stand your ground?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

 

HANNITY: You have never heard about it before?

 

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ement.html?_r=0

 

 

In the spring of 2010, a military prosecutor with the Army taught a college class near here that delved into Florida’s Stand Your Ground law. One of his pupils stood out for his diligence: George Zimmerman, who earned an A.

 

http://www.foxnews.c...silence-hannity

 

 

HANNITY: Is there anything you regret? Do you regret getting out of the car to follow Trayvon that night?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

 

HANNITY: Do you regret that you had a gun that night?

 

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

 

HANNITY: Do you feel you wouldn't be here for this interview if you didn't have that gun?

 

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

 

HANNITY: You feel you would not be here?

 

ZIMMERMAN: I feel it was all God's plan and for me to second guess it or judge it --

 

I don't know about you guys, but if I were Zimmerman, I would definitely regret having followed Martin.

[Ziggy]

All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight, and slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete walk way. If those accounts are accurate, Martin is no longer a unarmed kid, he is a man using concrete as a weapon to physically harm another human with the possibility of killing Zimmerman. If the fight got broken up before Zimmerman shot Martin, it is conceivable that Martin could have been charged with attempted murder/manslaughter.

 

You mean aside from the fact that the only person with a gun pursued and confronted the only person without a gun? That evidence is kinda crucial, and paints a very different picture of the situation. It's really hard not to paint Zimmerman as the aggressor here with the available information.

 

He left his vehicle because the dispatcher asked him which direction Martin went, and Zimmerman was parked in a spot where he could no longer follow by vehicle. Martin at any time could have called the police himself, could have ran home, could have called his dad. Martin did none of these things, he instead keep talking to his friend on his cell, and called Zimmerman a "cracker". Why would a kid scared for his life turn and challenge a larger and older man instead of going home, calling someone to help him or getting his father involved in some way? Where is the evidence that Zimmerman instigated the altercation that lead to Martin being shot. There is none, Zimmerman showed no bruising on his knuckles to indicate he even punched Martin. Zimmerman was also the only one to sustain any injuries prior to the gun shot. Following someone is not a crime, its not aggressive, its not a justification to get into a physical altercation with someone over.

[Junior]

He left his vehicle because the dispatcher asked him which direction Martin went, and Zimmerman was parked in a spot where he could no longer follow by vehicle. Martin at any time could have called the police himself, could have ran home, could have called his dad. Martin did none of these things, he instead keep talking to his friend on his cell, and called Zimmerman a "cracker". Why would a kid scared for his life turn and challenge a larger and older man instead of going home, calling someone to help him or getting his father involved in some way? Where is the evidence that Zimmerman instigated the altercation that lead to Martin being shot. There is none, Zimmerman showed no bruising on his knuckles to indicate he even punched Martin. Zimmerman was also the only one to sustain any injuries prior to the gun shot. Following someone is not a crime, its not aggressive, its not a justification to get into a physical altercation with someone over.

 

Are you joking? The dispatcher asked him NOT TO FOLLOW MARTIN.

http://www.documentc...-zimmerman.html

 

Dispatcher

Are you following him?

 

Zimmerman

Yeah.

 

Dispatcher

Ok, we don't need you to do that.

 

Zimmerman

Ok.

 

You are assuming Martin started the altercation. Threw the first punch. You don't know this, you can't know this.

[Mavric]

All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight, and slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete walk way. If those accounts are accurate, Martin is no longer a unarmed kid, he is a man using concrete as a weapon to physically harm another human with the possibility of killing Zimmerman. If the fight got broken up before Zimmerman shot Martin, it is conceivable that Martin could have been charged with attempted murder/manslaughter.

You mean aside from the fact that the only person with a gun pursued and confronted the only person without a gun? That evidence is kinda crucial, and paints a very different picture of the situation. It's really hard not to paint Zimmerman as the aggressor here with the available information.

But isn't it Zimmerman's contention that it was actually Martin that instigated the fight? How do you know that Zimmerman wasn't just going to watch him until he was out of the area - or police arrived - until Martin attacked him?

 

Zimmerman claims he got out of his vehicle to find a house number to let police know where he saw the allegedly suspicious person, and while returning to his car was knocked down by a punch in the nose and attacked by Martin.

ABC Article

[Mavric]

He left his vehicle because the dispatcher asked him which direction Martin went, and Zimmerman was parked in a spot where he could no longer follow by vehicle. Martin at any time could have called the police himself, could have ran home, could have called his dad. Martin did none of these things, he instead keep talking to his friend on his cell, and called Zimmerman a "cracker". Why would a kid scared for his life turn and challenge a larger and older man instead of going home, calling someone to help him or getting his father involved in some way? Where is the evidence that Zimmerman instigated the altercation that lead to Martin being shot. There is none, Zimmerman showed no bruising on his knuckles to indicate he even punched Martin. Zimmerman was also the only one to sustain any injuries prior to the gun shot. Following someone is not a crime, its not aggressive, its not a justification to get into a physical altercation with someone over.

 

Are you joking? The dispatcher asked him NOT TO FOLLOW MARTIN.

http://www.documentc...-zimmerman.html

 

Dispatcher

Are you following him?

 

Zimmerman

Yeah.

 

Dispatcher

Ok, we don't need you to do that.

 

Zimmerman

Ok.

 

You are assuming Martin started the altercation. Threw the first punch. You don't know this, you can't know this.

And you are assuming the same for Zimmerman.

[carlfense]

Zimmerman claims he got out of his vehicle to find a house number to let police know where he saw the allegedly suspicious person, and while returning to his car was knocked down by a punch in the nose and attacked by Martin.

ABC Article

Wonder why he would claim that?

 

It might even be true . . . but he killed the only other person that we could ask.

[Mavric]

Zimmerman claims he got out of his vehicle to find a house number to let police know where he saw the allegedly suspicious person, and while returning to his car was knocked down by a punch in the nose and attacked by Martin.

ABC Article

Wonder why he would claim that?

 

It might even be true . . . but he killed the only other person that we could ask.

Agreed. But that doesn't make it false.

[Mavric]

Zimmerman claims he got out of his vehicle to find a house number to let police know where he saw the allegedly suspicious person, and while returning to his car was knocked down by a punch in the nose and attacked by Martin.

ABC Article

Wonder why he would claim that?

 

It might even be true . . . but he killed the only other person that we could ask.

Honest question because I don't know: Everyone is talking about how Zimmerman was a "wannabe cop" and how many other times he's called 911 to report something suspicious. How many times did he actually confront any of those other "suspicious" people he was calling about?

[knapplc]

All of the available information and evidence pointed toward Martin being the aggressor in the fight, and slamming Zimmerman's head into a concrete walk way. If those accounts are accurate, Martin is no longer a unarmed kid, he is a man using concrete as a weapon to physically harm another human with the possibility of killing Zimmerman. If the fight got broken up before Zimmerman shot Martin, it is conceivable that Martin could have been charged with attempted murder/manslaughter.

 

You mean aside from the fact that the only person with a gun pursued and confronted the only person without a gun? That evidence is kinda crucial, and paints a very different picture of the situation. It's really hard not to paint Zimmerman as the aggressor here with the available information.

 

He left his vehicle because the dispatcher asked him which direction Martin went, and Zimmerman was parked in a spot where he could no longer follow by vehicle. Martin at any time could have called the police himself, 1 could have ran home, could have called his dad. Martin did none of these things, 2 he instead keep talking to his friend on his cell, and called Zimmerman a "cracker". 3 Why would a kid scared for his life turn and challenge a larger and older man instead of going home, calling someone to help him or getting his father involved in some way? 4 Where is the evidence that Zimmerman instigated the altercation that lead to Martin being shot. There is none, Zimmerman showed no bruising on his knuckles to indicate he even punched Martin. Zimmerman was also the only one to sustain any injuries prior to the gun shot. 5 Following someone is not a crime, its not aggressive, its not a justification to get into a physical altercation with someone over.

 

First bold: He was going home.

 

Second bold: It is not a crime to talk on your cell phone, nor is it a crime to describe someone as a "cracker" to your friend on the phone. Neither talking on your phone nor telling the person you're talking to that someone you see is a "crazy-ass cracker" warrants being stopped by someone you have no knowledge of or contact with.

 

Third bold: I can think of a dozen reasons why he would do that, ranging from he's a nut-job trying to show off how tough he is to he's scared for his life because that larger, older man is threatening him with a gun. Neither I nor you know why he did that, or if Zimmerman gave him no chance to flee.

 

Fourth bold: You mean aside from the fact that he was in his car, then left his car and pursued and contacted Martin?

 

Third bold: Agree, but while it may not be a crime, it's also not prudent. Had Zimmerman stayed in his car, Martin would have gone home and lived. Zimmerman made the decision to leave his car while armed and pursue a teenager walking home, make contact with him, and then shooting him dead.

 

The instigator in all of this is Zimmerman, not Martin. Martin was on a sidewalk, walking home from the convenience store. Nothing he did, nothing that he's alleged to have done, is illegal.

[carlfense]

Zimmerman claims he got out of his vehicle to find a house number to let police know where he saw the allegedly suspicious person, and while returning to his car was knocked down by a punch in the nose and attacked by Martin.

ABC Article

Wonder why he would claim that?

 

It might even be true . . . but he killed the only other person that we could ask.

Agreed. But that doesn't make it false.

The problem with a self-defense claim like this is that the benefit of the doubt almost necessarily runs to the person who did the killing. I think that Zimmerman is (at the very least) partially culpable. He chose to pursue a course of action that resulted in the death of an unarmed 17 year old. The problem is that only the killer gets to give his side of the story. That doesn't mean that his story is necessarily false . . . but it's easy to see why Zimmerman would be motivated to tell the story as he did.