Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground" in FL

[The Dude]

In the end it was about 20 bad decisions by both parties that ended up with one of the parties being dead. Either person could have ended the chain reaction but didn't.

 

That's a bold statement, considering you only know Zimmerman's story. Pretty much the only facts we know: Unarmed kid followed by guy with a gun, unarmed kid ends up dead. But the unarmed kid should have ended the chain reaction?

By not beating the sh#t out of Zimmerman? Yes.

 

Sure you could argue that it's Zimmerman's fault he got beat up by Martin, but that's a little too close to the "it's her fault she got raped" argument for my comfort.

 

If that's the context you choose to believe the fight in, ok. But that isn't 100% confirmed factual information. That's Zimmerman's side of the story.

 

The best case scenario for Zimmerman is that he's a racist who followed this kid based on the fact that he's black and walking in the rain, against the wishes of the police he called, which directly led to a confrontation of some sort. Upon realizing he was going to lose the fight, he shot Martin. BEST CASE SCENARIO his actions started a fight he couldn't win, and he killed the other guy for it.

 

In any state other than Florida (and maybe some other states in the deep south), he goes to jail. If he kills a white kid in the same manner, he goes to jail. If you believe otherwise, I have a bridge I can sell you. Stand your ground is an asinine law, and teaches us that, in Florida, it is best to kill someone you fight with so they can't refute your story.

Actually, it's the only thing we do know about the fight with near certainty. Martin was, as a matter of fact, beating the sh#t out of Zimmerman. I find it interesting you choose to omit it in your rundown of facts we know.

 

What we don't know is who started the fight. You're suggesting that even if Zimmerman was flat out assaulted by Martin, it's still Zimmerman's fault for following him. Which is shaky logic at best. It's similar enough to the "if she didn't want to get raped she shouldn't have been out that late" line of reasoning to make me uncomfortable.

[knapplc]

Yeah, it's 2013. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but who is fueling it at this point? Everyone can stop playing the race card. I would be curious to see the reaction of black Americans if social media was around during the whole O.J. thing.... Would their disappointment, and rage be so strong?

 

I get the annoyance with "the race card" but let's not pretend for a second that 2013 means racism in America is dead. And foisting racism off on those "playing the race card" minimizes a real problem. I know there are those who profit off that kind of thing but they pale in comparison to the very real racism problem this country faces.

 

Race issues will always be there as long as we keep segregating ourselves. We do it in sports, tv, media, basically everywhere.

 

We do, and it's basic human nature. "Us vs. Them" is one of the most basic thoughts ingrained into our psyche, probably dating back to our hunter/gatherer days when we had to protect what little resources we had from predators and other clans. When your very survival as a species depends on the wildebeest you just killed, anyone not in your clan is very, very bad. Today, "them" can be anyone who doesn't share the same likes as you, the same political interests as you, the same sports fandom as you, whatever. While our survival doesn't depend on protecting Memorial Stadium from "them" from Ann Arbor, "they" are still the bad guy.

 

I think those instincts get ramped up when our homes or families are threatened - in a real or perceived manner - and we make less-than-ideal decisions in those situations sometimes. The perception of a threat is as real and dangerous as an actual threat in that situation because you simply have no idea what's going to happen. You see accidental shootings late at night in peoples' homes because of this, even when the person shot is the son who had previously snuck out of the house, or some drunk accidentally breaking in to what he thought was his place.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I don't see this as a race issue, with the possible exception that Zimmerman profiled Martin because he was Black. We don't know if he did, so it's a possibility, nothing more. I wouldn't convict him on a possibility. For me, bottom line in this case is, Zimmerman was told by 911 to leave the kid alone, not to pursue him, and to wait for the local PD to take care of it. Had he done that, Martin would likely be alive today. The tragedy here is that some doofus with a cop complex took matters into his own hands when he didn't need to, and a kid is dead. Doesn't matter what color anyone's skin is.

[carlfense]

1) Martin was over him and was beating his head into the ground

I don't think that we can say that we know that. Zimmerman (unsurprisingly) claims that. The only other person who could explain what happened and why is dead.

 

I really don't think they proved much more than the above that are relevant to murder or manslaughter charges. In my opinion, there was flat out not enough evidence to send this man to prison. This falls under "Reasonable Doubt."

The jury agrees with you. After hearing the evidence presented at trial I expected a not guilty or a manslaughter conviction only.

[carlfense]

For me, bottom line in this case is, Zimmerman was told by 911 to leave the kid alone, not to pursue him, and to wait for the local PD to take care of it. Had he done that, Martin would likely be alive today. The tragedy here is that some doofus with a cop complex took matters into his own hands when he didn't need to, and a kid is dead. Doesn't matter what color anyone's skin is.

 

Holster sniffer.

[B.B. Hemingway]

Yeah, it's 2013. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but who is fueling it at this point? Everyone can stop playing the race card. I would be curious to see the reaction of black Americans if social media was around during the whole O.J. thing.... Would their disappointment, and rage be so strong?

 

I get the annoyance with "the race card" but let's not pretend for a second that 2013 means racism in America is dead. And foisting racism off on those "playing the race card" minimizes a real problem. I know there are those who profit off that kind of thing but they pale in comparison to the very real racism problem this country faces.

 

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

[Landlord]

Yeah, it's 2013. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but who is fueling it at this point? Everyone can stop playing the race card. I would be curious to see the reaction of black Americans if social media was around during the whole O.J. thing.... Would their disappointment, and rage be so strong?

 

I get the annoyance with "the race card" but let's not pretend for a second that 2013 means racism in America is dead. And foisting racism off on those "playing the race card" minimizes a real problem. I know there are those who profit off that kind of thing but they pale in comparison to the very real racism problem this country faces.

 

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

 

 

Racist.

[Junior]

Actually, it's the only thing we do know about the fight with near certainty. Martin was, as a matter of fact, beating the sh#t out of Zimmerman. I find it interesting you choose to omit it in your rundown of facts we know.

 

What we don't know is who started the fight. You're suggesting that even if Zimmerman was flat out assaulted by Martin, it's still Zimmerman's fault for following him. Which is shaky logic at best. It's similar enough to the "if she didn't want to get raped she shouldn't have been out that late" line of reasoning to make me uncomfortable.

 

No, we don't know that with near certainty. Zimmerman's injuries were not consistent with someone getting the sh#t beat out of him. They were consistent with a fight.

 

Fact: Zimmerman called 911 who told him NOT to follow Martin. All actions that were subsequent to this, are of his doing. He's a grown man following another nearly grown man. There is no rape analogy here.

 

Fact: No DNA of Zimmerman's was found under Martin's finger nails.

 

Fact: No DNA of Martin's were found on Zimmerman's gun, despite Zimmerman saying Martin grabbed his gun.

 

Fact: No blood of Martin's was found on Zimmerman (especially odd given the theory that Martin was on top of Zimmerman).

 

 

An expert witness testified Wednesday that none of George Zimmerman's DNA was found under the fingernails of Trayvon Martin, despite defense attempts to portray Zimmerman as only firing his gun in self-defense.

...

On Tuesday, a medical examiner testified that Zimmerman's injuries were "insignificant" and could have been the result of a single blow as prosecutors continued to make their case that the neighborhood watch volunteer was not simply defending himself when he shot the 17-year-old Martin

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/03/zimmerman-school-records-at-issue-in-wednesday-hearing/

 

 

Forensic tests made public Wednesday show that George Zimmerman's was the only DNA that could be identified on the grip of the gun used to fatally shoot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

 

There are plenty of reasons to doubt Zimmerman's description of what happened. Is he legally guilty? Probably not. Is he morally guilty? Absolutely.

[B.B. Hemingway]

Yeah, it's 2013. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but who is fueling it at this point? Everyone can stop playing the race card. I would be curious to see the reaction of black Americans if social media was around during the whole O.J. thing.... Would their disappointment, and rage be so strong?

 

I get the annoyance with "the race card" but let's not pretend for a second that 2013 means racism in America is dead. And foisting racism off on those "playing the race card" minimizes a real problem. I know there are those who profit off that kind of thing but they pale in comparison to the very real racism problem this country faces.

 

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

 

 

Racist.

 

That's an unnecessary accusation to make, and a very untrue one. I just feel that America in particular, has made great strides in the area of racism, and it seems to go unnoticed. Racism is a crutch that our country wants to lean on too often. In somes cases it's legitimate, and in some (like this one) it's not....

[ADS]

Nancy Grace drops a racial slur on live TV during her HLN show.

 

Can't stand that woman, she is what makes the media right now so god awful.

[Junior]

Yeah, it's 2013. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but who is fueling it at this point? Everyone can stop playing the race card. I would be curious to see the reaction of black Americans if social media was around during the whole O.J. thing.... Would their disappointment, and rage be so strong?

 

I get the annoyance with "the race card" but let's not pretend for a second that 2013 means racism in America is dead. And foisting racism off on those "playing the race card" minimizes a real problem. I know there are those who profit off that kind of thing but they pale in comparison to the very real racism problem this country faces.

 

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/06/17/192730233/for-people-of-color-a-housing-market-partially-hidden-from-view

 

Here's another sobering data point to that end: A new study has found that blacks, Latinos and Asians looking for homes were shown fewer housing options than whites who were equally qualified. And fewer options meant higher housing costs.

 

The study, conducted by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Urban Institute (a nonpartisan think tank in Washington) used a method called "pair testing." Two people — one person of color and one white person — called and then visited a real estate office to ask about an available property for rent or sale. Both of the pair testers told real estate agents that they had about the same income, assets and employment. Both testers were greeted politely and given appointments to look at properties. But whites were told about and shown more units. They were also more likely to be offered lower rent than their testing partners.

 

According to the study, the problem wasn't regional but national. The researchers said they did this more than 8,000 times in 28 different metropolitan regions.

 

 

Sure, progress has been made, but lets not pretend that electing a black president makes it all ok.

[B.B. Hemingway]

Yeah, it's 2013. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, but who is fueling it at this point? Everyone can stop playing the race card. I would be curious to see the reaction of black Americans if social media was around during the whole O.J. thing.... Would their disappointment, and rage be so strong?

 

I get the annoyance with "the race card" but let's not pretend for a second that 2013 means racism in America is dead. And foisting racism off on those "playing the race card" minimizes a real problem. I know there are those who profit off that kind of thing but they pale in comparison to the very real racism problem this country faces.

 

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

 

http://www.npr.org/b...idden-from-view

 

Here's another sobering data point to that end: A new study has found that blacks, Latinos and Asians looking for homes were shown fewer housing options than whites who were equally qualified. And fewer options meant higher housing costs.

 

The study, conducted by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Urban Institute (a nonpartisan think tank in Washington) used a method called "pair testing." Two people — one person of color and one white person — called and then visited a real estate office to ask about an available property for rent or sale. Both of the pair testers told real estate agents that they had about the same income, assets and employment. Both testers were greeted politely and given appointments to look at properties. But whites were told about and shown more units. They were also more likely to be offered lower rent than their testing partners.

 

According to the study, the problem wasn't regional but national. The researchers said they did this more than 8,000 times in 28 different metropolitan regions.

 

 

Sure, progress has been made, but lets not pretend that electing a black president makes it all ok.

 

I never said it made it all ok. I just said it shows the progress made, and there is no doubting that.

[Whistlebritches]

Two men get into a (completely avoidable) physical altercation where one of them ends up dead. It seems like the killer should be guilty of something and that's what surprises me the most. Not murder, probably not manslaughter, but surely something would fit.

 

Also, I feel like this has gotten more coverage because it was a gun that was used and not because of race. Had Zimmerman reached around for a brick to hit Martin in the head with and the trauma killed him, I don't think this is nearly the divisive issue that it's become.

[knapplc]

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

 

Let's not pretend that the reality of racism today is that minorities are conflating something that isn't a problem. Is it better than the 1950s and 1960s? Sure, but it almost can't not be. We've filled in 50 feet of a 75-foot hole. It's better, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean that the victims of discrimination are at fault.

[Ziggy]

Anyone who had a preconceived notion that a person is guilty before a case had gone to trial is bound to be biased if that person has been found not guilty at the end of it. I personally think its an atrocity that we allow the media to sensationalize these types of cases, that in fact inflame racial division and generally end badly for prosecutors. Some examples are the Duke rape case, the Zimmerman/Martin case, and the OJ Simpson case to name a few. How can we as a country expect to overcome racism if we are told that white on black crime is worse than white on white, black on black or black on white. Regardless of skin color, we are all humans. Violence should only be used as a last resort.

 

It appears that Zimmerman at least cares about some black people. A 2011 incident in which he accused the local police department of corruption in the cover up of a homeless black man who was assaulted by a white police officers son.

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/05/23/zimmerman-sanford-police-covered-up-beating-of-black-homeless-man-by-white-officer/

[B.B. Hemingway]

I acknowledged that racism exist. But it's not the problem that it was 20 years ago. There has been progress made, and I feel that minorities like to pretend there hasn't been. I mean, we elected an African-American President to back-to-back terms. THAT'S progress, and can't be ignored as such. Imo, minorities tend to fuel the racism "fire" more than white Americans do. Everything can't be blamed on race. It must be exhausting to become so personally invested in every crime against a black person.

 

Let's not pretend that the reality of racism today is that minorities are conflating something that isn't a problem. Is it better than the 1950s and 1960s? Sure, but it almost can't not be. We've filled in 50 feet of a 75-foot hole. It's better, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean that the victims of discrimination are at fault.

Understandable, but does turning issues like this into something about race allow old wombs to heal? It seems counterproductive. I grew up in an area that would be defined as a melting pot (Whites, blacks, Hispanics, Orientals) and it was extremely rare that race was ever an issue. I don't see this as the case, but maybe growing up in a friendly environment, with a variety of ethnic backgrounds has blinded me to some of the racial tension across the rest of the country. Where I grew up, and with those of us in the area, it just wasn't an issue....