Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground" in FL

[Junior]

This is a year old.

 

Indeed, one of my friends sent it to me and I didn't notice the date. Apologies.

[carlfense]

Zimmerman told the police that he went to go find an address to send the police when they got to the area.

Why did he leave a street to look for an address in an area that wasn't a street . . . where Trayvon Martin just happened to be?

 

Do you generally look for addresses on the backs of houses? Further . . . do you actually believe him?

[Landlord]

You're trying way too hard on this and it's disturbing.

It kind of makes you wonder why . . .

 

In fact, I can understand passionate feelings regarding the death of an unarmed teenager . . . but it is very hard for me to understand passionate feelings on behalf of Zimmerman . . .

 

Because I am tired of people making it out that somehow our judicial system failed us every time a jury chooses not to hand out what the public deems is right based on opinions and what the media has pushed since they sensationalized the whole thing.

 

You aren't talking about the jury's decision and neither are we (if you are you're doing a piss poor job of explaining it). This conversation is about where blame actually truly lies, intrinsically. Not about what could be proven. I have no disagreement with the court's ruling, but the system is imperfect and they only did the best they could within the broken framework.

 

Zimmerman's actions are what caused the death of a 17 year old boy. If he doesn't act the way he does, that young man is still alive.

 

It is that simple.

[carlfense]

Because I am tired of people making it out that somehow our judicial system failed us every time a jury chooses not to hand out what the public deems is right based on opinions and what the media has pushed since they sensationalized the whole thing.

Is someone here saying this? It seems to me that people agree with (or at least understand) the verdict but also believe that Zimmerman's actions should be illegal.

[Junior]

You're trying way too hard on this and it's disturbing.

It kind of makes you wonder why . . .

 

In fact, I can understand passionate feelings regarding the death of an unarmed teenager . . . but it is very hard for me to understand passionate feelings on behalf of Zimmerman . . .

 

Because I am tired of people making it out that somehow our judicial system failed us every time a jury chooses not to hand out what the public deems is right based on opinions and what the media has pushed since they sensationalized the whole thing.

 

No, there's a difference between understanding the verdict and thinking Zimmerman was in the right. You seem to be arguing that Zimmerman's actions were just, while I'm arguing that legally he may be not guilty, but morally he's guilty as hell.

[knapplc]

I am not blaming Martin for Zimmerman getting out of his car. I am merely using the actual evidence to construct what jurors used to made their determination. If every time someone got out of a car after they appeared to be following me I would have had a lot of run ins with the law. By your logic only Zimmerman is responsible for his actions.

 

You and I have no evidence showing that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Zimmerman told the police that he went to go find an address to send the police when they got to the area. He never wavered during any of the questioning that police put him through about his timeline.

 

No. You're taking the evidence from only one point of view and refusing to look at all angles. Zimmerman bears the brunt of responsibility because he initiated the situation. Had he not seen Martin or simply left Martin alone there would have been no altercation. The fact that something is done legally does not make it right. To wit: Jim Crow laws.

 

Zimmerman's explanation that he went to find an address is in conflict with his statement to 911 dispatch that he was pursuing Martin.

[carlfense]

You're trying way too hard on this and it's disturbing.

It kind of makes you wonder why . . .

 

In fact, I can understand passionate feelings regarding the death of an unarmed teenager . . . but it is very hard for me to understand passionate feelings on behalf of Zimmerman . . .

 

Because I am tired of people making it out that somehow our judicial system failed us every time a jury chooses not to hand out what the public deems is right based on opinions and what the media has pushed since they sensationalized the whole thing.

 

You aren't talking about the jury's decision and neither are we (if you are you're doing a piss poor job of explaining it). This conversation is about where blame actually truly lies, intrinsically. Not about what could be proven. I have no disagreement with the court's ruling, but the system is imperfect and they only did the best they could within the broken framework.

 

Zimmerman's actions are what caused the death of a 17 year old boy. If he doesn't act the way he does, that young man is still alive.

 

It is that simple.

+1

[Ziggy]

By all accounts he was the person on top pummeling Zimmerman, which is illegal, he used concrete as a weapon, which is attempted murder, or assault with a deadly weapon.

No. That's not "using a weapon."

 

Explain how that is not using a weapon? If I push someone into a wood chipper, that's not using a weapon?

That's not how it works. If you want to say that Martin used a weapon you have to prove that he used a weapon . . . I don't have to prove that he didn't use a weapon.

 

If it had been hard packed dirt, would you be trying to claim that he used dirt as a weapon?

 

(Now if you pick up a chunk of concrete and hit someone with it . . . that would be "using a weapon.")

 

Witness and police reports back up Zimmerman's story about the concrete. I said in the first quote, that he used concrete as a weapon, he used the concrete inherent density to inflect more damage to Zimmerman than if his head was on grass or dirt. So alter your words all you want, and spin your spin, but Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into concrete, which is much more damaging to the brain that if he would just punch him while they were both standing upright.

[Junior]

By all accounts he was the person on top pummeling Zimmerman, which is illegal, he used concrete as a weapon, which is attempted murder, or assault with a deadly weapon.

No. That's not "using a weapon."

 

Explain how that is not using a weapon? If I push someone into a wood chipper, that's not using a weapon?

That's not how it works. If you want to say that Martin used a weapon you have to prove that he used a weapon . . . I don't have to prove that he didn't use a weapon.

 

If it had been hard packed dirt, would you be trying to claim that he used dirt as a weapon?

 

(Now if you pick up a chunk of concrete and hit someone with it . . . that would be "using a weapon.")

 

Witness and police reports back up Zimmerman's story about the concrete. I said in the first quote, that he used concrete as a weapon, he used the concrete inherent density to inflect more damage to Zimmerman than if his head was on grass or dirt. So alter your words all you want, and spin your spin, but Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into concrete, which is much more damaging to the brain that if he would just punch him while they were both standing upright.

 

Martin was seen by who? Can you back that statement up with a link? Because I'm 99.999% sure you can't.

[Mavric]

Right about the third, which is why I said "Neither I nor you know why he did that" to point out that Ziggy's premise was errant. I wasn't making a statement of fact, I was showing that his statement is not fact.

 

RE: The fourth bold - we have Zimmerman's testimony, both during the police investigation and during the trial, where he states he left his vehicle to pursue Martin. I don't see how that's incorrect.

Where?

 

Zimmerman told the police officer that he lost track of the teen and got out of his truck to look for a street name he could relay to a police dispatcher.

 

Full Article

 

At this point, the dispatcher asked Zimmerman, “Are you following him?” – referring to Martin. When Zimmerman said he was, the dispatcher said, “OK. We don’t need you to do that.”

 

Full Article

I don't see anywhere where he "left his vehicle to pursue Martin". I see where he said he was following him in his vehicle. I see where he left he vehicle to find a house number. I see no where where he left his vehicle to pursue Martin.

[knapplc]

Right about the third, which is why I said "Neither I nor you know why he did that" to point out that Ziggy's premise was errant. I wasn't making a statement of fact, I was showing that his statement is not fact.

 

RE: The fourth bold - we have Zimmerman's testimony, both during the police investigation and during the trial, where he states he left his vehicle to pursue Martin. I don't see how that's incorrect.

Where?

 

Zimmerman told the police officer that he lost track of the teen and got out of his truck to look for a street name he could relay to a police dispatcher.

 

Full Article

 

At this point, the dispatcher asked Zimmerman, “Are you following him?” – referring to Martin. When Zimmerman said he was, the dispatcher said, “OK. We don’t need you to do that.”

 

Full Article

I don't see anywhere where he "left his vehicle to pursue Martin". I see where he said he was following him in his vehicle. I see where he left he vehicle to find a house number. I see no where where he left his vehicle to pursue Martin.

 

So... how do you think Zimmerman got between the houses in contact with Martin? Are the addresses on the backs of those houses, in the common area, or on front facing the street?

[Mavric]

So... how do you think Zimmerman got between the houses in contact with Martin? Are the addresses on the backs of those houses, in the common area, or on front facing the street?

I'm not saying anything about that. I'm asking where you got Zimmerman's testimony saying he got out of his car to pursue Martin. (Sorry it's too many quotes to keep re-posting the entire line of discussion.)

[Ziggy]

Look I understand this is an emotional debate, filled with way more information than anyone can truly process and understand fully. And we have a problem that so much information that goes around is conjecture, faulty, one sided, and often misrepresented. I want people to know I am truly saddened that Trayvon Martin lost his life, I agree that it should have never came to that end. Furthermore, I agree that Zimmerman is directly responsible for Martin's death. He decided to pull his concealed pistol and use deadly force.

 

But I want people to be able to protect their families, their communities, and their own lives. I think its important that people who are afraid for their own well being be able to do something about it legally. Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch person, if people in the neighborhood felt he wasn't working in their best interests, they should have done something about it. Who are we to say Zimmerman was not afraid for his life, or that he didn't see Martin do something suspicious, like cutting through peoples yards, or appearing in areas that are known to have break in problems. Martin did not deserve to die because of his actions leading up to the fight, but if he as alleged by Zimmerman, jumped him, got him to the ground, and pummeled him MMA style against a concrete walkway, then I think Zimmerman could have the belief his own life was in jeopardy and felt the use of his sidearm was necessary to prevent Martin from killing or badly injuring him further.

 

Thirdly, people always want to make things about right and wrong, black and white, good guy bad guy. But sometimes sh#t happens and people die. Sometimes a kid thinks he is tough and is gonna beat up a creepy cracker who is following him and then gets shot, sometimes a wannabe cop wants to harass a black thug kid wearing a hoodie, and pushes the kid too far, and gets his ass kicked, and gets scarred or pissed and shoots the kid. As they say it takes two to tango, and neither Martin or Zimmerman are without blame. I will leave it to you who you think. But I am not gonna argue that one or the other is solely to blame for the actions that both took that lead to Trayvon's death.

[Mavric]

So... how do you think Zimmerman got between the houses in contact with Martin? Are the addresses on the backs of those houses, in the common area, or on front facing the street?

I don't know. Looks like they are nice apartments. Are you sure they're AREN'T addresses on both sides?

[Ziggy]

"Junior"

 

 

 

Martin was seen by who? Can you back that statement up with a link? Because I'm 99.999% sure you can't.

 

 

Martin was identified by his skin color and clothing as being on top, backed up by Zimmerman being wet laying in the wet grass. Indeed, the witness could see if Zimmerman's head was on concrete or not, but O'Mara testified that the abrasions were consistent with head to concrete contact.

 

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/jun/28/neighbor-testifies-about-martin-zimmerman-fight/#axzz2Z8UJQtPw