HuskerShark Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 It's widely believed that if you commit suicide, you go to hell, but I have no idea. It's not my place to judge who gets into heaven. I'll leave that up to God. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I guess when someone commits suicide and then comes back to tell us what happened, then we'll know the answer. Isn't that the only level of proof that will satisfy some of you? Of course then we'll have to question their cognitive functions and a lot of you still won't believe their anecdotal evidence. Maybe the only real answer can be provided by killing yourself and seeing what happens. What I think I know about it is this; God knows what is in your heart and will respond accordingly. As this applies to particular cases, I really couldn't give 2 sh#ts what any particular church or religion has to say on the subject. Generally however, I agree with Landlords answer and I believe if a person is not mentally incapacitated that it might quite possibly be a sin that cannot be forgiven. In summary; If you don't believe in God or your eternal soul, it doesn't matter so don't ponder it. If you do believe in God, it will be handled correctly and you don't need to concern yourself about possibly being unfairly treated. Link to comment
bleedinghuskerred Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I've always thought most religions viewed suicide as leading straight to hell. Pop culture also snags onto this idea in books and movies. Link to comment
Enhance Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I've always thought most religions viewed suicide as leading straight to hell. Pop culture also snags onto this idea in books and movies. That was my understanding, as well. Link to comment
strigori Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 If everything is God's plan set in motion before the universe was created, how can it even be a choice? You were destined to kill yourself before you were born. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I think some are confusing destiny with God knowing what choice you are going to make. They are not the same thing. Plus, I don't think "everything is God's plan set in motion". We have the choice and responsibility for our decisions and actions. I can see that it would be futile for God given the fact he does know what we are going to do but that in no way limits our free will to do as we choose. It is different than destiny because it does not become our destiny until we make our choice. Destiny infers that we do not have the option to choose. If we choose the red pill, then the red pill is our destiny. If we choose the blue pill, than the blue pill is our destiny. God knowing which you are going to choose beforehand doesn't affect your ability to choose at all. Link to comment
strigori Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Link to comment
HuskerShark Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. What if we had the ability to time travel and could see what will happen in the future? Does that make the decisions people make and all occurrences in the world fate? Link to comment
Landlord Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us? There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices? 1 Link to comment
HuskerShark Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us? There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices? This is along the lines of what I was going to say, but I'm glad I didn't because you probably said it better than I would have. +1 Link to comment
bennychico11 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us? There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices? This is along the lines of what I was going to say, but I'm glad I didn't because you probably said it better than I would have. +1 Lots of assumptions being made about a god that many say we can never fully understand or have absolute knowledge of. Especially for a couple humans that probably don't understand completely the physics/philosophy of spacetime in the current naturalistic sense (not saying I do either, though...but I also don't make broad assumptions about something I claim to live outside of the realm of my knowledge or this universe). Link to comment
Enhance Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 They can correct me if I'm saying this wrong, but I'm pretty sure theistic views dictate God does not travel on the same timeline as humans. Link to comment
HuskerShark Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us? There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices? This is along the lines of what I was going to say, but I'm glad I didn't because you probably said it better than I would have. +1 Lots of assumptions being made about a god that many say we can never fully understand or have absolute knowledge of. Especially for a couple humans that probably don't understand completely the physics/philosophy of spacetime in the current naturalistic sense (not saying I do either, though...but I also don't make broad assumptions about something I claim to live outside of the realm of my knowledge or this universe). It's not assumptions. Speaking for myself, I can say that what I believe about God is mostly from what has been taught to me, and the things in this world that I see reinforce those beliefs. Things that I don't necessarily think fit together, I usually cast away. Like the whole fate issue. A lot of Christians believe in fate, but I think that is kind of a ridiculous notion to believe that everything that we do is planned out for us. That takes away the significance of life. But getting to the point I am trying to make, I was reading a book just today that was talking about 98% (I think) of America's population living on 2% of the land in the US and how people being packed that closely together brings out the worst in people. I've seen this first-hand so many times. Not only does being trapped in a city bring out the worst in people, I think that people who live in cities are far less likely to be Christian--or any religion for that matter--because they have never truly been out of the city and seen the beauty that the world holds. Maybe that scenario fits you. I don't know anything about you, so I don't mean it to come off as an insult or something like that. I'm just spit-ballin' in my buzzed state right now. Link to comment
Enhance Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I think people who live outside of cities tend to be simpler people (i.e. farmers), and people who lead simpler lives tend to be pretty religious. Not meant to be insulting, of course, but in my experience, this is what I've seen. People in small towns/farmers tend to be simpler and more religious. Then again, you have to consider population parameters. Far more people live in a square mile of a city than they do in a small town/farm. So, naturally, more people means more opportunities for differences. It'd be like comparing an ant hill to a litter of kittens and diagnosing social norms. The variables are vastly different. Link to comment
HuskerShark Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I think people who live outside of cities tend to be simpler people (i.e. farmers), and people who lead simpler lives tend to be pretty religious. Not meant to be insulting, of course, but in my experience, this is what I've seen. People in small towns/farmers tend to be simpler and more religious. Then again, you have to consider population parameters. Far more people live in a square mile of a city than they do in a small town/farm. So, naturally, more people means more opportunities for differences. It'd be like comparing an ant hill to a litter of kittens and diagnosing social norms. The variables are vastly different. This is kind of the point I was trying to make. Farmers and people who live in rural areas (I grew up on a small farm, so I can attest to this) can see the beauty of the world and IMO that helps reinforce the existence of God. When you grow up and/or live in a city, you are surrounded by nothing but streets and buildings, and that makes it harder to see the beauty that (I believe) God made. Link to comment
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