Religion, it's hard to come up with a single answer.

[bennychico11]

Religion. And they believe it's an inclusive, loving, institution?

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/mpQA0.jpg/////

 

 

(edit...sorry, I didn't mean to put the whole image up, just a link)

[zoogs]

I generally believe religion's aims are honorable. There are a great many who do and have done pretty awful things in its name, but on the whole it is probably a greater force of good with a larger number of people. There are bad eggs everywhere, religion or not. There are many shortcomings to religion for sure, especially of the extremist or organized variety. And it is always very distasteful when something that strives for something so good as religion ends up causing bad. There are a lot of strong, but not representative examples here.

 

Mostly though I just don't buy into it. But there are many rational, reasonable, well-grounded people both religious and not, and they have a lot more in the way of common threads than is implied by the focus of most such discussion.

[Excel]

Religion. And they believe it's an inclusive, loving, institution?

 

 

 

Religion is not responsible for the issues we see in your post. Organized Religion, in its many forms, is still nothing more than an ideology and in the cases of most of the popular ones; more or less benevolent. The problem is that Religion, like all other ideologies, can be used as vehicle to manifest other feelings or desires.

 

For example take the current situation with Iran: So often we hear quotes from that Nation's leaders, "kill all the Jews" this and "destroy America" that always framed in an Islamic context. The truth is that the foreign policy of Iran and the feelings of its leaders are not dictated by anything found in that religion, they are caused by a long nasty political history between the two camps involving coups, engineered proxy wars and oil. Religion is not the root of the problem, its simply one of the thinly applied veneers meant to win over different segments of the population.

 

It's a similar deal with more localized phenomena like gay bashing in the name of Religion. Are Religions to blame for intolerant views? I tend to think they aren't but rather that a certain number of people, especially the old, rich, powerful or dumb cling to the status quo and established order of things for security. When people fly in the face of that, when they're gay or another religion there's a natural reactionary violent urge that at times uses religion as a vehicle and at times not.

 

Look at it this way....when Ohio State plays Michigan what kinds of things are brought up? What things are said? How is the event framed? Blue v. Scarlet. Bo v. Woody. Kate Upton v Casey Anthony...all things Michigan against all things Ohio but at the end of the day the real conflict is simply a football game between athletes from two different schools. Nothing more. Everything else is just a shortcut, a quick and easy way for people to put things in context. They are products of the game, they do not produce the game.

 

Do you really believe that thousands died in the Troubles because of religion? I don't. The same with Israel and Palestine or what we saw in the former Yugoslavia. Religion just happens to serve as a means by which people draw up the camps for an "Us versus Them" showdown, it is not a cause of such conflicts.

[MLB 51]

Religion. And they believe it's an inclusive, loving, institution?

 

 

 

Religion is not responsible for the issues we see in your post. Organized Religion, in its many forms, is still nothing more than an ideology and in the cases of most of the popular ones; more or less benevolent. The problem is that Religion, like all other ideologies, can be used as vehicle to manifest other feelings or desires.

 

For example take the current situation with Iran: So often we hear quotes from that Nation's leaders, "kill all the Jews" this and "destroy America" that always framed in an Islamic context. The truth is that the foreign policy of Iran and the feelings of its leaders are not dictated by anything found in that religion, they are caused by a long nasty political history between the two camps involving coups, engineered proxy wars and oil. Religion is not the root of the problem, its simply one of the thinly applied veneers meant to win over different segments of the population.

 

It's a similar deal with more localized phenomena like gay bashing in the name of Religion. Are Religions to blame for intolerant views? I tend to think they aren't but rather that a certain number of people, especially the old, rich, powerful or dumb cling to the status quo and established order of things for security. When people fly in the face of that, when they're gay or another religion there's a natural reactionary violent urge that at times uses religion as a vehicle and at times not.

 

Look at it this way....when Ohio State plays Michigan what kinds of things are brought up? What things are said? How is the event framed? Blue v. Scarlet. Bo v. Woody. Kate Upton v Casey Anthony...all things Michigan against all things Ohio but at the end of the day the real conflict is simply a football game between athletes from two different schools. Nothing more. Everything else is just a shortcut, a quick and easy way for people to put things in context. They are products of the game, they do not produce the game.

 

Do you really believe that thousands died in the Troubles because of religion? I don't. The same with Israel and Palestine or what we saw in the former Yugoslavia. Religion just happens to serve as a means by which people draw up the camps for an "Us versus Them" showdown, it is not a cause of such conflicts.

Well said and totally agree.

[The Dude]

Extremists are a product of taking things purely on faith, something, that the society is afraid or (worse) indifferent to challenge.

[strigori]

Religion. And they believe it's an inclusive, loving, institution?

 

 

 

Religion is not responsible for the issues we see in your post. Organized Religion, in its many forms, is still nothing more than an ideology and in the cases of most of the popular ones; more or less benevolent. The problem is that Religion, like all other ideologies, can be used as vehicle to manifest other feelings or desires.

 

For example take the current situation with Iran: So often we hear quotes from that Nation's leaders, "kill all the Jews" this and "destroy America" that always framed in an Islamic context. The truth is that the foreign policy of Iran and the feelings of its leaders are not dictated by anything found in that religion, they are caused by a long nasty political history between the two camps involving coups, engineered proxy wars and oil. Religion is not the root of the problem, its simply one of the thinly applied veneers meant to win over different segments of the population.

 

It's a similar deal with more localized phenomena like gay bashing in the name of Religion. Are Religions to blame for intolerant views? I tend to think they aren't but rather that a certain number of people, especially the old, rich, powerful or dumb cling to the status quo and established order of things for security. When people fly in the face of that, when they're gay or another religion there's a natural reactionary violent urge that at times uses religion as a vehicle and at times not.

 

Look at it this way....when Ohio State plays Michigan what kinds of things are brought up? What things are said? How is the event framed? Blue v. Scarlet. Bo v. Woody. Kate Upton v Casey Anthony...all things Michigan against all things Ohio but at the end of the day the real conflict is simply a football game between athletes from two different schools. Nothing more. Everything else is just a shortcut, a quick and easy way for people to put things in context. They are products of the game, they do not produce the game.

 

Do you really believe that thousands died in the Troubles because of religion? I don't. The same with Israel and Palestine or what we saw in the former Yugoslavia. Religion just happens to serve as a means by which people draw up the camps for an "Us versus Them" showdown, it is not a cause of such conflicts.

You have a bit of a naive outlook. Most of the violent and ugly incidents in human history anchor around religion. Don't sit here stick your head in the sand because you do not want to look at things truthfully.

 

Ohio State and Mich fans may 'hate' each other, but it would be next to impossible to whip one fan base into a frenzy to go out and kill the other fan base. With religion it is a very short walk to the genocide endgame.

 

I figured it wouldn't be long before people started calling the things in the OP 'just the actions of a few extremists.' I encourage you to go take a closer look at all the facebook posts shown in that montage.

[JJ Husker]

Meh, only seeing the side that you want to see. If that's the way it worked, Lawrence Phillips and Christian Peter should've been enough to convict Husker football.

[The Dude]

Meh, only seeing the side that you want to see. If that's the way it worked, Lawrence Phillips and Christian Peter should've been enough to convict Husker football.

Not at all the same thing. 9/11 happened because they believed so strongly they were doing the right thing. Their religion directly lead to their actions. I don't see how you could argue the same thing in your example.

[Excel]

You have a bit of a naive outlook. Most of the violent and ugly incidents in human history anchor around religion. Don't sit here stick your head in the sand because you do not want to look at things truthfully.

 

Ohio State and Mich fans may 'hate' each other, but it would be next to impossible to whip one fan base into a frenzy to go out and kill the other fan base. With religion it is a very short walk to the genocide endgame.

 

I figured it wouldn't be long before people started calling the things in the OP 'just the actions of a few extremists.' I encourage you to go take a closer look at all the facebook posts shown in that montage.

 

Naive? No. If anyone is naive it is those that look for a simple remedy for human suffering and conflict. You look to religion as the root cause of our problems but that blame is misplaced. Removing religion would do nothing to ease violence or suffering in our world. The truth is that it is in the nature of humanity for its members to bicker, fight and commit horrible atrocities upon one another. Religion is just one of many justifications used to execute those acts.

 

You and so many others, have subconsciously refused to accept that painful fact because at some level you find it disgusting that such barbarity is hardwired. Your rejection causes you to hunt for a scapegoat. What could possibly cause such unforgivable behavior if it is not in our nature? Hmmm it must be religion.

 

I am not an apologist. I will admit that religion has serious problems but it is not, in itself, a serious problem.You believe that "Most of the violent and ugly incidents in human history anchor around religion." Well I believe that most violent and ugly incidents in our collective history anchor around the violent and ugly tendencies innate to the character of Humanity. I threw out a few examples in my first post which you chose not to address but I'll bounce a couple more out there...

 

9/11 - Someone else brought this up. Clearly Islam caused the attacks right? Strange then that we were not attacked on such a large scale by "jihadists" before the Gulf War, because that would surely happen if Muslims were called by their religion to engage in never ending war with nonbelievers. Let the Carter Doctrine and Reagan corollary be damned, they had nothing to do with this. In fact lets throw out the whole Western track record in the region; The Great Game, Colonialism and partition, economic and cultural exploitation, coups, propped up dictatorships and proxy wars had nothing to do with this.

 

They in no way influenced the minds of the many enemies we now have in the area because those people are too dumb to be aware of their own condition. They are just barely intelligent enough to grasp the tenants of a backward religion and that alone motivates their actions. Who here is naive?

 

In actuality all of those things and many others motivate actors in North Africa, the Middle East and South Asia. They seek different ideologies as outlets and vehicles for their frustrations, Pan-Arabism, Arab Socialism and yes sometimes "radical" Islam but none of those have caused the conflict. The cause of the conflict is political and economic.

 

Was religion the cause for the extermination of indigenous Americans in our own Country? For Pearl Harbor? For the Mongol hordes? For the Armenian Genocide? Come on, these things are our own fault, not that of religion.

 

Hell we had might as well ban music right? Since so many dictators in history have set their crimes to a soundtrack. Music must be the cause.

 

 

 

[The Dude]

9/11 - Someone else brought this up. Clearly Islam caused the attacks right? Strange then that we were not attacked on such a large scale by "jihadists" before the Gulf War, because that would surely happen if Muslims were called by their religion to engage in never ending war with nonbelievers. Let the Carter Doctrine and Reagan corollary be damned, they had nothing to do with this. In fact lets throw out the whole Western track record in the region; The Great Game, Colonialism and partition, economic and cultural exploitation, coups, propped up dictatorships and proxy wars had nothing to do with this.

Fair point, but we still have people flying planes into buildings for the promise of 72 virgins.

[Husker_x]

I think A root cause is maybe a better way of putting it than THE root cause. Of course the root cause of war, rape, murder, etc. is, to put it broadly, the human condition. But you seem to be forgetting about the large swaths of people that aren't murderers, who don't or wouldn't participate in genocide, and who generally aspire to lead ethical lives that maximize human happiness and minimize human suffering.

 

What makes religion uniquely dangerous as an ideology is the overlap of two unfortunate things: the complete inability to logically justify its teachings on any subject and an overwhelming emotional component that overrides the minds of otherwise reasonable people. It isn't just something people believe. It's in many cases how they think. And how people think directly affects how they behave. If you think that your lawn mower breaking down is a sign from Allah that he wants the grass to grow taller, you're going to have tall grass. If you think that the lawnmower broke down because a wire came loose and you take it to a repair shop, they'll fix the mower and you'll mow your lawn. You seem to be vastly understating, particularly in the case of Islam, just how infectious it has been, how many nations find themselves in theocracy because of it, and how many political decisions are given to religious leaders because the people believe that it is the will of Allah, and can be shepherded to do almost anything because they have the belief that anyone who does not accept Allah is an enemy, and not say, for example, the belief that all human beings should be equal.

 

If you think you should help the poor because Jesus thought it was a good idea, it might be that there is a positive social outcome. If you believe that you should help the poor and God hates f**s, there is a mixed social outcome. The problem even with the best case scenario is that you have an extra assumption that can't be validated or verified by any means. A broken clock is right twice a day, but still wrong the rest of the time.

[JJ Husker]

Meh, only seeing the side that you want to see. If that's the way it worked, Lawrence Phillips and Christian Peter should've been enough to convict Husker football.

Not at all the same thing. 9/11 happened because they believed so strongly they were doing the right thing. Their religion directly lead to their actions. I don't see how you could argue the same thing in your example.

 

I wouldn't /couldn't argue the same thing in my example because it doesn't have anything at all to do with the point I was trying to make. My point is you can't or shouldn't look at only the bad aspects of anything without also looking at the good aspects. Sure 911, radical fundementalism, the crusades, etc. showcase some of the bad things related to religion (just like Phillips & Peter) but then to leap to the conclusion that religion (or NU football) is only a force for bad well that is the same as using a few minority criminals as an example of why all similar minorities are also bad people.

[krill]

What makes religion uniquely dangerous as an ideology is the overlap of two unfortunate things: the complete inability to logically justify its teachings on any subject and an overwhelming emotional component that overrides the minds of otherwise reasonable people.

 

^

 

Very thoughtful post, I hope it's not overlooked in this discussion. So I will quote you and pretend I have something to add.

[The Dude]

Meh, only seeing the side that you want to see. If that's the way it worked, Lawrence Phillips and Christian Peter should've been enough to convict Husker football.

Not at all the same thing. 9/11 happened because they believed so strongly they were doing the right thing. Their religion directly lead to their actions. I don't see how you could argue the same thing in your example.

 

I wouldn't /couldn't argue the same thing in my example because it doesn't have anything at all to do with the point I was trying to make. My point is you can't or shouldn't look at only the bad aspects of anything without also looking at the good aspects. Sure 911, radical fundementalism, the crusades, etc. showcase some of the bad things related to religion (just like Phillips & Peter) but then to leap to the conclusion that religion (or NU football) is only a force for bad well that is the same as using a few minority criminals as an example of why all similar minorities are also bad people.

Obviously not every aspect of religion is bad, but it is directly and indirectly responsible for some of the more abhorrent things in human history. You're ignoring the part where religion is a motivator in these terrible things. Were Phillips and Peter motivated by NU football to do the bad things they did? No, probably not. Did Islamic terrorists fly planes into the WTC because they were convinced by their religion that they were doing a good thing and they were going to receive a celestial reward for it? Yeah, probably.

 

Does that make every religious person a bad person? No, absolutely not. That wasn't my point.

[Lil' Red]

I wouldn't /couldn't argue the same thing in my example because it doesn't have anything at all to do with the point I was trying to make. My point is you can't or shouldn't look at only the bad aspects of anything without also looking at the good aspects. Sure 911, radical fundementalism, the crusades, etc. showcase some of the bad things related to religion (just like Phillips & Peter) but then to leap to the conclusion that religion (or NU football) is only a force for bad well that is the same as using a few minority criminals as an example of why all similar minorities are also bad people.

 

If the bad aspects of religion were confined to only a few bad apples I would agree with you but unfortunately they aren't. Extremists aren't prevalent but there are many that support their acts. There are ordinary people ignorantly condoning or suggesting violence against individuals that go against their beliefs. Religion seems to instill the belief, in many of its followers, that they are entitled the moral authority to judge others whose actions or beliefs contradict their own. Religion often overrides logic for its followers and compels them to hold firm to intolerant views. It has many good aspects but until it becomes more accepting I believe that the bad aspects outweigh the good.