More poll numbers - nobody is doing well

[carlfense]

You're attributing "Romney should win" to me in a different tense than I have intended to state it. I don't think either one of them, or anyone for that matter, "should" win with empty slogans. I am merely saying that all things being equal, which I believe in this case they are, Obama won on empty slogans and unfulfilled promises of hope & change because the previous regime was portrayed as totally inept so, I believe Romney is now in almost the exact same boat following a failed regime. Even without detailed proposals, or his tax returns, we can hope that he will be better so therefore, by reasons of elimination, he is the better choice. I don't like the situation but one is a proven failure and the other has yet to prove or detail anything. If anyone is applying a double standard here, it is not me. I won't blow sunshine and tell you Romney has done any better than Obama did 4 years ago in explaining things or that he will definitely be better, that remains to be seen. However, I can say with a high level of confidence that it sure isn't likely to be any worse. And yes, much of that does have to do with the differences I perceive between dems and repubs. It is not simply blind partisanship as knapp is insinuating. It is because I feel fiscally conservative policy is a better direction than the direction I believe Obama and the dems want to undertake. The one caveat I have with that is I'm not convinced Romney has the same ideas of fiscal conservatism as I do but I'm willing to gamble that his version is a whole lot closer to what I desire than Obama's.

You might want to vote for a different party if you are truly a fiscal conservative. The record of GOP presidents on that front aren't particularly pretty.

 

How is Obama a proven failure?

[JJ Husker]

 

You might want to vote for a different party if you are truly a fiscal conservative. The record of GOP presidents on that front aren't particularly pretty.

 

How is Obama a proven failure?

 

Unfortunately, that is true for all recent presidents, GOP or not.

BTW- What party should I vote for, that has a snowballs chance in hell of winning, if I desire true fiscal conservatism? Don't worry it's a rhetorical question.

 

How is Obama a proven failure? Really? That's your question? Really? I suppose maybe the 6% who climbed the ranks from middle class to upper class might disagree but for the remainder of the 51% middle class and 29%+/- lower class I think, after the past 4 years, that is pretty much a no brainer. My question to you is how can you consider his time as chief executive anything but a failure? We can pick and choose good and bad features of Obamacare but honestly what else has he accomplished? What has he provided leadership on? What policies does he have in place to set us on the right course into the future? I realize that most problems we have are more congress induced than the direct fault of the president but surely you aren't so far gone that you actually think he has been successful.

[carlfense]

Unfortunately, that is true for all recent presidents, GOP or not.

If your definition of fiscal conservatism is partly based on spending less than you take in . . . you should probably be a Clinton fan.

 

How is Obama a proven failure? Really? That's your question? Really? I suppose maybe the 6% who climbed the ranks from middle class to upper class might disagree but for the remainder of the 51% middle class and 29%+/- lower class I think, after the past 4 years, that is pretty much a no brainer. My question to you is how can you consider his time as chief executive anything but a failure? We can pick and choose good and bad features of Obamacare but honestly what else has he accomplished? What has he provided leadership on? What policies does he have in place to set us on the right course into the future? I realize that most problems we have are more congress induced than the direct fault of the president but surely you aren't so far gone that you actually think he has been successful.

I suppose it depends on how you define success.

 

If success is relative to his immediate predecessors he is less successful than Clinton and much more successful than W.

 

If you are looking purely at domestic accomplishments:

Ended DADT

Enacted wide ranging health care reform

Created the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

Stopped defending DOMA in court

Saved GM

 

If you are looking at foreign policy:

Withdrew all troops from Iraq

Killed Bin Laden (and a host of other Al Qaeda leaders)

Assisted in regime change in Libya without a single boot on the ground

 

If you'd like me to list his failures (as I see them) I'll happily do that as well. Failure to enact more effective stimulus, lack of transparency, extending the Patriot Act, and drone strikes on American citizens are certainly on that list.

[JJ Husker]

 

I suppose it depends on how you define success.

 

If success is relative to his immediate predecessors he is less successful than Clinton and much more successful than W.

 

If you are looking purely at domestic accomplishments:

Ended DADT

Enacted wide ranging health care reform

Created the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

Stopped defending DOMA in court

Saved GM

 

If you are looking at foreign policy:

Withdrew all troops from Iraq

Killed Bin Laden (and a host of other Al Qaeda leaders)

Assisted in regime change in Libya without a single boot on the ground

 

If you'd like me to list his failures (as I see them) I'll happily do that as well. Failure to enact more effective stimulus, lack of transparency, extending the Patriot Act, and drone strikes on American citizens are certainly on that list.

 

Actually on economics issues I am sort of a Clinton fan. He would be a good example of an exception to my statement.

 

As for your list of Obama's "success's" well we're in that area again where we are going to have to agree to disagree. Should've maybe just left it at "I suppose it depends on how you define success" because it would appear that we define it drastically differently. However, I will issue partial credit for 3; the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, withdrawing troops from Iraq and killing OBL. Only partial because elements of the CFPB also caused some unintended consequences that do not benefit the consumer and on Iraq because I am not convinced any other President wouldn't have done the same thing in about the same timeframe. Only less than partial credit for "killing" OBL primarily for the way you worded it. He didn't kill him, he only gave the orders that led to his death and I believe once again that any president worth a plug nickel would've/should've done the same thing. I wouldn't catagorize anything else you listed as a success and most would be a failure. The lone exception being that some of the elements of the ACA are good.

 

I would be interested in what you think his failures are/were. I'm guessing this forthcoming list may look more like a list of successes that I've overlooked.

[carlfense]

Only partial because elements of the CFPB also caused some unintended consequences that do not benefit the consumer and on Iraq because I am not convinced any other President wouldn't have done the same thing in about the same timeframe.

http://www.washingto...pjD4L_blog.html

“President Obama’s astonishing failure to secure an orderly transition in Iraq has unnecessarily put at risk the victories that were won through the blood and sacrifice of thousands of American men and women,” Romney wrote.

 

Only less than partial credit for "killing" OBL primarily for the way you worded it. He didn't kill him, he only gave the orders that led to his death and I believe once again that any president worth a plug nickel would've/should've done the same thing.

History generally credits the person who gives the orders. Whether that is just or not is open for debate . . . but that's a fact.

http://www.politifac...ling-bin-laden/

Still, Romney suggested just a few months later that he wouldn’t do what Obama ultimately did — call for a secret, unilateral Navy SEALs strike inside Pakistan. In 2007, Obama had said that if he were elected president, he would be willing to launch strikes against al-Qaida targets in Pakistan with or without Pakistan’s approval.

 

I wouldn't catagorize anything else you listed as a success and most would be a failure. The lone exception being that some of the elements of the ACA are good.

Saving GM, ending DADT, and not defending DOMA are mostly failures?

[carlfense]

My biggest three complaints are a shocking lack of transparency (when he explicitly promised otherwise), extending the Patriot Act that continues to trample our personal freedoms, and ordering drone strikes on U.S. citizens.

 

There are others but those are the biggest.

[walksalone]

The 2012 Presidential Elections....

 

What do you want more Crabs or Chlamydia

[Stu]

I also feel it's contest of "who sucks less".

 

When it comes to voting time, I might as well flip a coin and that is a sucky feeling.

 

I try to do my own research, but no matter what site you go too, it seems biased. Different news sources seem to contradict each other and it becomes a pain to find out where the candidates really stand. This country is going to be in trouble for a long time no matter who gets elected I'm afraid.

that is just not true, only because of the trajectory of american politics. the smallest choices can lead to incredible consequences.

But when I feel that either choice is a bad one, what is a guy to do?

[Lil' Red]

I also feel it's contest of "who sucks less".

 

When it comes to voting time, I might as well flip a coin and that is a sucky feeling.

 

I try to do my own research, but no matter what site you go too, it seems biased. Different news sources seem to contradict each other and it becomes a pain to find out where the candidates really stand. This country is going to be in trouble for a long time no matter who gets elected I'm afraid.

that is just not true, only because of the trajectory of american politics. the smallest choices can lead to incredible consequences.

But when I feel that either choice is a bad one, what is a guy to do?

 

You choose the lesser of two evils. Even if both candidates are appalling, one will still inflict less harm on the country.

[Enhance]

The problem with this election is not what the president has or hasn't done, it's with the American people. As a whole we give the president far too much credit for what goes right and what goes wrong.

 

Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States, had three accomplishments written on his tomb stone: writing the Declaration of Independence, writing the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedoms, and founding the University of Virginia. That's it - three accomplishments, none of which include being the President.

 

George Washington, our first president, had to be courted and persuaded to become president - he didn't want to do it.

 

Ulysses S. Grant had so little to do he often used to walk a few blocks to a hotel and sit in the lobby to watch parades go by.

 

Hell, we didn't even have a "president" as we know it today when the country was first formed.

 

The presidency used to be more of a service than the supreme act of government it's become. This is mostly due to World War II and The Cold War, when the president's power expanded exponentially, and we decided that the president should retain these powers. But, until people start realizing that our country's problems are more than what one man does, we're destined to remain underwhelming.

[carlfense]

The 2012 Presidential Elections....

 

What do you want more Crabs or Chlamydia

What?! How can you possibly even compare crabs and chlamydia?! Crabs has been an utter failure and a disaster for the country. I'd choose anything over crabs!! ANYTHING.

 

Sure, I criticize crabs for doing the same thing that chlamydia does . . . but if crabs does it . . . I'll excuse chlamydia for doing it.

[ZRod]

But when I feel that either choice is a bad one, what is a guy to do?

 

You choose the lesser of two evils. Even if both candidates are appalling, one will still inflict less harm on the country.

That's what I did last election and that's what I'll do this election. I think you just need to choose the biggest issue that you feel the most passionate about and vote with whoever's policy fits your views. Last election I voted based on the future of this countries energy policy this year I will vote on our economic policy.

[walksalone]

The 2012 Presidential Elections....

 

What do you want more Crabs or Chlamydia

What?! How can you possibly even compare crabs and chlamydia?! Crabs has been an utter failure and a disaster for the country. I'd choose anything over crabs!! ANYTHING.

 

Sure, I criticize crabs for doing the same thing that chlamydia does . . . but if crabs does it . . . I'll excuse chlamydia for doing it.

 

Crabs killed Bin Laden, Chlamydia is going to be the death knell for this great country

[carlfense]

The 2012 Presidential Elections....

 

What do you want more Crabs or Chlamydia

What?! How can you possibly even compare crabs and chlamydia?! Crabs has been an utter failure and a disaster for the country. I'd choose anything over crabs!! ANYTHING.

 

Sure, I criticize crabs for doing the same thing that chlamydia does . . . but if crabs does it . . . I'll excuse chlamydia for doing it.

 

Crabs killed Bin Laden, Chlamydia is going to be the death knell for this great country

hmmmm . . . I sort of wish that crabs would have killed Bin Laden. Not Crabs the politician . . . crabs the crustaceans. (Maybe there isn't much difference.)

[walksalone]

The 2012 Presidential Elections....

 

What do you want more Crabs or Chlamydia

What?! How can you possibly even compare crabs and chlamydia?! Crabs has been an utter failure and a disaster for the country. I'd choose anything over crabs!! ANYTHING.

 

Sure, I criticize crabs for doing the same thing that chlamydia does . . . but if crabs does it . . . I'll excuse chlamydia for doing it.

 

Crabs killed Bin Laden, Chlamydia is going to be the death knell for this great country

hmmmm . . . I sort of wish that crabs would have killed Bin Laden. Not Crabs the politician . . . crabs the crustaceans. (Maybe there isn't much difference.)

 

At this point, I'm not sure there is...