Undone Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Two great posts by NUance and knapp, +1 to both. Link to comment
carlfense Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I'm neither, but it really doesn't matter. The fact that you repeatedly make generalizations and often characterize entire groups/organizations by the conduct of few is weak. A catholic individual can believe that want to believe regardless of their leadership. The disgusting behavior of some doesn't diminish what others may/may not believe. Actually . . . it comes back to something I've asked several times in different contexts: Who is the Church? Is it the rape condoning, birth control fighting, Vatican . . . or is it the 82% of Catholics who accept birth control, don't condone rape, etc. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Catholics are good people . . . which leads me to wonder why they voluntarily associate with a church hierarchy that condones such evil. That's quite different than saying that Catholics are bad. Link to comment
NUance Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 The thing is, 99.9% (est) of what the Catholic Church does is good. The child molestations are absolutely heinous. All Catholics would agree with this, unless they are not in denial over whether these things actually happened. (They did—or at least many of them did.) Funny that the media seldom reports on the 99.9% of good things the Catholic Church does—the schools, hospitals, free clinics, orphanages, universities, day care centers, churches, and so on. Why is that? / btw, I am not Catholic. And frankly, don't believe in some aspects of Catholic worship. I just hate to see them get beat up over this when they do so many other good works. The media doesn't report on the good things I do, but if I killed someone or molested a child, you can bet they would report on that. Perhaps because, aside from your prospective killing and child molestation, the other 99.9% of the things you do don't involve running schools, hospitals, free clinics, orphanages, universities, day care centers, churches, and so on. If, aside from being the murderous child molester that you hypothetically might become, you did these sorts of good acts—well, I would expect the media to report on them. / btw, I am obviously just pulling that 99.9% figure out of thin air. It might be 99.999% or 98% for all I know. Link to comment
carlfense Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think condemning all Catholics because the Catholic church's hierarchy is corrupt is a bit much. Did someone do this? Link to comment
carlfense Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 The media doesn't report on the good things I do, but if I killed someone or molested a child, you can bet they would report on that. Particularly if you are in a position of trust and authority . . . such as running a school for deaf children. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Debuted on HBO last night. Absolutely chilling. If you are still Catholic . . . why? The evidence is overwhelming. How is this excused? https://www.hbo.com/...ulpa/index.html I will be sure to watch this. However, I think your questions assume some things that should not be assumed. If you are still Catholic....why? Because I agree with and share a majority of their faith and belief positions. Don't confuse those specific issues of why many people are still Catholic with some of the things human beings or those in positions of power have done under the guise of being Catholic clergy. How is this excused? Why in the world would you think these types things are "excused" by those who continue to be Catholic? I sure don't excuse them and I do not know any Catholics who excuse them. I don't think anyone should equate still being Catholic with excusing sexual abuse or coverups. Do I need to find a case of an atheist sexually abusing children and then ask you why you excuse that behavior? Please remember these are human weaknesses and not confined to any one specific religion or really even related to religion at all. I will admit the church has had way more than their fair share and has handled these cases very poorly but I do believe there is an attempt to rectify the problems. I simply fail to see how that should change what I believe. +1 to knapplc and Nuance for your posts. Well said. 1 Link to comment
carlfense Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 If you are still Catholic....why? Because I agree with and share a majority of their faith and belief positions. Don't confuse those specific issues of why many people are still Catholic with some of the things human beings or those in positions of power have done under the guise of being Catholic clergy. It wasn't done under the guise of clergy . . . they were clergy and in many cases still were clergy long after the church knew of their behavior. How is this excused? Why in the world would you think these types things are "excused" by those who continue to be Catholic? I sure don't excuse them and I do not know any Catholics who excuse them. I don't think anyone should equate still being Catholic with excusing sexual abuse or coverups. I think I'd classify the Pope as a Catholic . . . Do I need to find a case of an atheist sexually abusing children and then ask you why you excuse that behavior? Sure . . . as soon as you identify what atheist hierarchal structure I financially support that condones, conceals, and enables child rape. I will admit the church has had way more than their fair share and has handled these cases very poorly but I do believe there is an attempt to rectify the problems. I simply fail to see how that should change what I believe. It shouldn't change what you believe at all unless you believe that the Pope is holy . . . in fact I think that you could keep almost all beliefs intact without supporting the evil (my words) within the upper levels of the church. Have any splinter groups formed? (Other than Irish Catholics that Rome tried to bring back into the fold . . .) 1 Link to comment
Junior Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 The thing is, 99.9% (est) of what the Catholic Church does is good. The child molestations are absolutely heinous. All Catholics would agree with this, unless they are not in denial over whether these things actually happened. (They did—or at least many of them did.) Funny that the media seldom reports on the 99.9% of good things the Catholic Church does—the schools, hospitals, free clinics, orphanages, universities, day care centers, churches, and so on. Why is that? / btw, I am not Catholic. And frankly, don't believe in some aspects of Catholic worship. I just hate to see them get beat up over this when they do so many other good works. The media doesn't report on the good things I do, but if I killed someone or molested a child, you can bet they would report on that. Perhaps because, aside from your prospective killing and child molestation, the other 99.9% of the things you do don't involve running schools, hospitals, free clinics, orphanages, universities, day care centers, churches, and so on. If, aside from being the murderous child molester that you hypothetically might become, you did these sorts of good acts—well, I would expect the media to report on them. / btw, I am obviously just pulling that 99.9% figure out of thin air. It might be 99.999% or 98% for all I know. Not to be completely sidetracking the topic, but you act as though the running of schools, for example, isn't in their benefit. They charge tuition, typically, for Catholic school and require coursework in religion. So people are paying for their kids to go and be taught to be the next generation of Catholics, ensuring future "clients" (for lack of a better word) and therefore future church income. Not exactly a completely magnanimous gesture by the church. Link to comment
Undone Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Have any splinter groups formed? (Other than Irish Catholics that Rome tried to bring back into the fold . . .) I seem to recall a Martin some-such-other. He wrote 90ish some theses, can't remember the name exactly. I kid, I kid. Link to comment
sd'sker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 / btw, I am not Catholic. And frankly, don't believe in some aspects of Catholic worship. I just hate to see them get beat up over this when they do so many other good works. they are a force for good, that is not news, that is the standard they have created for themselves. but when there is a systemic and systematic scandal and they construct a cover-up instead of doing the right thing, that is going to get media attention. Link to comment
carlfense Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Have any splinter groups formed? (Other than Irish Catholics that Rome tried to bring back into the fold . . .) I seem to recall a Martin some-such-other. He wrote 90ish some theses, can't remember the name exactly. I kid, I kid. That's sort of what I was thinking... Link to comment
sd'sker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think condemning all Catholics because the Catholic church's hierarchy is corrupt is a bit much. It would be the same as condemning all Husker fans if we found out that Tom Osborne was secretly running a drug and prostitution cartel out of Memorial Stadium. He would be bad, we should not revere him any longer, but the fans can still be fans. The ideals that make Husker Football what it is still exist, even if the leadership turns out to be corrupt. Now, if such a thing were to happen and we, the Husker Fans, put up a statue or otherwise revered Osborne after it came to light, then we would be culpable. But we're not all bad/guilty because of one man's - even a head guy like T.O. - transgressions. what has anyone done to rectify the catholic church's scandal, member or not? why are they immune? has the church even apologized for what the members did and how it reacted? and if the church continues with its same congregation size and donations, why would it change? all i see is a lot of acquiescence. Link to comment
sd'sker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Have any splinter groups formed? (Other than Irish Catholics that Rome tried to bring back into the fold . . .) I seem to recall a Martin some-such-other. He wrote 90ish some theses, can't remember the name exactly. I kid, I kid. That's sort of what I was thinking... i got 95 theses, and a pope ain't one. hit it! Link to comment
carlfense Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 what has anyone done to rectify the catholic church's scandal, member or not? why are they immune? has the church even apologized for what the members did and how it reacted? and if the church continues with its same congregation size and donations, why would it change? all i see is a lot of acquiescence. Sort of . . . but still no accountability for the cover ups . . . http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/world/europe/21pope.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Link to comment
sd'sker Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 what has anyone done to rectify the catholic church's scandal, member or not? why are they immune? has the church even apologized for what the members did and how it reacted? and if the church continues with its same congregation size and donations, why would it change? all i see is a lot of acquiescence. Sort of . . . but still no accountability for the cover ups . . . http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0 when did the scandal break? like 6 years before that? i guess that is pretty quick for a church that only in 1992 apologized to galileo. Link to comment
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