Mea Maxima Culpa

[sd'sker]

Is anybody else tired of trying to explain to carlfense or sd'sker why some of us are catholic and believe in the religion, the fundamentals, and that the actions of few do not condemn the rest of us. They will deny it, but there is some sort of vendetta with them or they wouldn't continually try to sway us from the religion. Isn't it ironic that as much as they bash catholics for "pushing" their beliefs on people that they continue to try and push their beliefs on us about how bad the church is?

i know i sure am tired of trying to explain the difference between believing in a religion and being part of an organization.

 

do you really think that i or carlfense really care what you believe? how insecure in your faith are you? i, personally, could not care less what a person believes as long as that belief does not hurt anyone else.

 

what i do care about is when an organization engages in criminal behavior that harms children and then that organization, or any member, does anything to correct and prevent that criminal behavior. for god's sake, even psu did the right thing when their scandal came to light and purged everyone involved and is now trying to do the right thing (whatever that may be). the catholic church tries to present itself as some sort of beacon of morality, and judges people and societies, yet seemingly refuses to hold itself to any standard. that is a problem and how you confuse that criticism with a criticism against your own personal beliefs or any individual's is beyond me.

[BigRedBuster]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

[sd'sker]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

is this a joke?

[JJ Husker]

This place probably needs another religion themed forum. Of course the primary one would be titled "Come on in and bash the Catholic religion". It wouldn't matter what you called the other one because nobody would post anything in it anyway.

Not the religion . . . unless you say that rape was part of the religion. Odd thing to fail to differentiate . . .

 

I answered your two initial questions quite directly and explained my answers. I thought I differentiated quite clearly in my explanation. You on the other hand started this topic with the assumption that people who still are Catholic must therefore excuse this behavior. Call me crazy but it would appear that you are the one not differentiating very well between faith/belief issues and the sexual abuse and coverup issue. Next thing ya know, you will be claiming anyone who cheered for the Huskers or Lawrence Phillips, after his return to the team, is complicit in and excuses his behavior. Oh I hope you haven't spent a dime that has ended up in the NU athletic department since that deal.

[Junior]

This place probably needs another religion themed forum. Of course the primary one would be titled "Come on in and bash the Catholic religion". It wouldn't matter what you called the other one because nobody would post anything in it anyway.

Not the religion . . . unless you say that rape was part of the religion. Odd thing to fail to differentiate . . .

 

I answered your two initial questions quite directly and explained my answers. I thought I differentiated quite clearly in my explanation. You on the other hand started this topic with the assumption that people who still are Catholic must therefore excuse this behavior. Call me crazy but it would appear that you are the one not differentiating very well between faith/belief issues and the sexual abuse and coverup issue. Next thing ya know, you will be claiming anyone who cheered for the Huskers or Lawrence Phillips, after his return to the team, is complicit in and excuses his behavior. Oh I hope you haven't spent a dime that has ended up in the NU athletic department since that deal.

 

Did Tom Osborne or the Nebraska athletic department knowingly protect Lawrence Phillips from prosecution for crimes he committed? If the answer to that question is no, which it is, then it is not an analogous situation.

 

I think the most apt comparison is to Joe Paterno. He is the pope in this situation, and turned a blind eye to allegations of abuse. For it, he was fired and died in disgrace. The pope, however, is still in power and revered by Catholics the world over. Granted there are still Penn Staters who support and believe in Paterno, however, those people are in denial or have their priorities way the hell out of whack.

[JJ Husker]

It is still a valid analogy. There are people who firmly believe the only reason Osborne brought him back to the team was to win more games. I don't agree with them but those people exist. Many of those same people claim that Husker fans condoned the behavior because they still supported the program. That is materially no different than carl floating the idea that Catholics excuse the behavior of some pediphile priests. If you want coverup conspiracies, there are plenty of those aimed at TO and the athletic department from the same era. I'm not going to perpetuate them or help advance them because I don't subscribe to them. But, my point is the analogy is very similar.

 

At least carl set us all straight on the pope being Catholic. Imagine my surprise. I will be sure next time to specify Catholics I personally know and talk to to avoid the confusion of those who simply want to parse words.

[carlfense]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

Does your spiritual worship include the rape of children? If not . . . well you might want to rethink this.

[carlfense]

This is basically saying the Catholic Church itself is bad and that you should not believe in it or the teachings without just frankly saying it. How is this not trying to push beliefs??

No . . . where have I repeatedly "bash[ed] Catholics for pushing their beliefs on people"? That was your accusation . . . but if it has happened I sure don't remember it. My memory isn't what it used to be and I'll happily admit that I was wrong if you can provide an example.

 

People want to put down the church but it's the people who are doing wrong they should put down. Our faith has sinners just like any other faith or non-faith.

No offense intended . . . but this sure looks like an excusing this behavior. You seem to be saying that other religious organizations (or non-religious organizations) have child rapists too so we shouldn't care what the Vatican has done. If this were a few isolated incidents I would agree. Unfortunately for thousands of Catholic children . . . it was not a few isolated incidents. The Church, to the absolute highest levels, knew of these incidents decades ago and had the stated policy of not turning the priests over for criminal prosecution. Instead they covered it up . . . bought silence from children . . . and shuffled the offending priests to other parishes where they continued raping children.

 

That's not an attack on your faith. That's a statement of (paraphrased) facts. That's quite a difference.

 

If you want to blame certain people in the church so be it, but the way you guys come across, as in the above bolded sentence, seems to put your ire on all Catholics. Most of us from what I've seen on here do not try and stick up for the people that are actually doing the wrong, we are just sticking up for the religion and it's teachings on it's own. Some catholics, even "leaders" of the church do wrong and are selfish, dishonest, etc. That's wrong and I don't condone it, but it's not b/c the faith teaches that b/c it doesn't.

So why continue to support those leaders that do wrong?

[carlfense]

You on the other hand started this topic with the assumption that people who still are Catholic must therefore excuse this behavior.

strigori said it well . . .

 

If the anti-religion people on this forum were members of a club where the leaders either raped kids, or covered it up, but we kept going and contributing money, we would be attacked, and justly so.

 

This is no different. The membership of the Catholic Church keep tithing away. By most people that is at least complacency. The membership knows there are criminals in positions of authority, and do nothing to change it. The membership could effectively change the viewpoints simply by ceasing to attend Mass, and ceasing to tithe. Neither has happened.

 

Next thing ya know, you will be claiming anyone who cheered for the Huskers or Lawrence Phillips, after his return to the team, is complicit in and excuses his behavior. Oh I hope you haven't spent a dime that has ended up in the NU athletic department since that deal.

If you want to make football analogies it'd be more accurate to say:

1. You know that Sandusky raped many children

2. You financially support his legal defense

3. You support the organization that hid internal records of the rapes from law enforcement

4. You support the organization that shuffled Sandusky to a different part of the country where he promptly resumed raping children

[sd'sker]

i just find it odd that whenever we criticize the church, with what would otherwise be unanimously supported criticisms of any other organization, we are bashing the faith and the believers for what they believe in. talk about misdirection. no one cares about the religious teachings of the church, all we care about is how the church conducts itself.

[carlfense]

i just find it odd that whenever we criticize the church, with what would otherwise be unanimously supported criticisms of any other organization, we are bashing the faith and the believers for what they believe in. talk about misdirection. no one cares about the religious teachings of the church, all we care about is how the church conducts itself.

That's actually one of the more dramatic moments in the film.

 

SPOILER ALERT

 

One of the molested boys (now grown up) confronts the priest who molested him and he is intercepted by a housekeeper who repeatedly and furiously asks the molested guy "ARE YOU A CATHOLIC?!" "ARE YOU A CATHOLIC?!" ARE YOU A CATHOLIC?!" The guy says that "this has nothing to do with Catholicism! This is about rape!"

 

[gobiggergoredder]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

Does your spiritual worship include the rape of children? If not . . . well you might want to rethink this.

I think condemning all Catholics because the Catholic church's hierarchy is corrupt is a bit much.

Did someone do this?

You are all over the place.

[gobiggergoredder]

i just find it odd that whenever we criticize the church, with what would otherwise be unanimously supported criticisms of any other organization, we are bashing the faith and the believers for what they believe in. talk about misdirection. no one cares about the religious teachings of the church, all we care about is how the church conducts itself.

I would suggest that you go back and read the OP.

 

This entire thread started with questioning why anyone would choose to be a catholic. In Carlfense fashion, it has morphed into something off the original topic. By page 3 it will be if you attend a catholic church you are the same as Joe Paterno.

[sd'sker]

i just find it odd that whenever we criticize the church, with what would otherwise be unanimously supported criticisms of any other organization, we are bashing the faith and the believers for what they believe in. talk about misdirection. no one cares about the religious teachings of the church, all we care about is how the church conducts itself.

I would suggest that you go back and read the OP.

 

This entire thread started with questioning why anyone would choose to be a catholic. In Carlfense fashion, it has morphed into something off the original topic. By page 3 it will be if you attend a catholic church you are the same as Joe Paterno.

did you not immediately, for some inane reason, bring up muslims?

[gobiggergoredder]

i just find it odd that whenever we criticize the church, with what would otherwise be unanimously supported criticisms of any other organization, we are bashing the faith and the believers for what they believe in. talk about misdirection. no one cares about the religious teachings of the church, all we care about is how the church conducts itself.

I would suggest that you go back and read the OP.

 

This entire thread started with questioning why anyone would choose to be a catholic. In Carlfense fashion, it has morphed into something off the original topic. By page 3 it will be if you attend a catholic church you are the same as Joe Paterno.

did you not immediately, for some inane reason, bring up muslims?

 

Yeah I did, but much like the post you responded to, I will explain that for you to.

 

Why are we not questioning Muslim's because of what some have chosen to do? It sounds like you feel like that is ridiculous (which was my point..you got it!)

Why are not question being an American if you don't agree with the path of your government? You agree with everything congress does...right? You don't and you're not leaving the country? Hmmm?

Why do you cheer for the Ravens when Ray Lewis murders people? You must agree with murder...right?

A company you worked for closed down a facility and a family lost their health insurance. You believe everyone should have health insurance, so of course you're going to quit...right?

The state Texas executes people. You are from Texas so you support execution....right?

You bought gas at BP. You clearly support the oil spill in the gulf...right?