Mea Maxima Culpa

[BigRedBuster]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

Does your spiritual worship include the rape of children? If not . . . well you might want to rethink this.

I think condemning all Catholics because the Catholic church's hierarchy is corrupt is a bit much.

Did someone do this?

You are all over the place.

 

 

LOL....Typical Carl.

[carlfense]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

Does your spiritual worship include the rape of children? If not . . . well you might want to rethink this.

I think condemning all Catholics because the Catholic church's hierarchy is corrupt is a bit much.

Did someone do this?

You are all over the place.

. . . you're proving my point. Spiritual worship for the vast majority of practicing Catholics doesn't include child rape. The Catholic Church hierarchy condoned and enabled the rape of many children. There's a difference there . . . but it's possible that you'd prefer to not see it.

 

It's quite possible to continue the former without supporting (financially/verbal defense/denial/etc.) the latter.

[Junior]

i just find it odd that whenever we criticize the church, with what would otherwise be unanimously supported criticisms of any other organization, we are bashing the faith and the believers for what they believe in. talk about misdirection. no one cares about the religious teachings of the church, all we care about is how the church conducts itself.

I would suggest that you go back and read the OP.

 

This entire thread started with questioning why anyone would choose to be a catholic. In Carlfense fashion, it has morphed into something off the original topic. By page 3 it will be if you attend a catholic church you are the same as Joe Paterno.

did you not immediately, for some inane reason, bring up muslims?

 

Yeah I did, but much like the post you responded to, I will explain that for you to.

 

Why are we not questioning Muslim's because of what some have chosen to do? It sounds like you feel like that is ridiculous (which was my point..you got it!)

Why are not question being an American if you don't agree with the path of your government? You agree with everything congress does...right? You don't and you're not leaving the country? Hmmm?

Why do you cheer for the Ravens when Ray Lewis murders people? You must agree with murder...right?

A company you worked for closed down a facility and a family lost their health insurance. You believe everyone should have health insurance, so of course you're going to quit...right?

The state Texas executes people. You are from Texas so you support execution....right?

You bought gas at BP. You clearly support the oil spill in the gulf...right?

 

1) Again. We are not questioning Muslims because A) Muslims hold little to no power in this country, other than in the minds of a few paranoid folks on the right, and B) to the best of my knowledge, Muslim clergy in the United States have not been accused of widespread sexual abuse of children, covered up by more powerful members of the church.

 

2) Millions of Americans, Democrats during the Bush era and Republicans now, voice their displeasure with and insist that a president is not "their" president because they don't like the direction that specific president is taking the country. They vote against said president in the next round of elections or go so far as to attempt impeachment, if possible. Do you know of any such public criticism from internal sources levied towards the Pope or any effort by Catholic church members to "dethrone" the Pope because of this scandal?

 

3) Ray Lewis was convicted of obstruction of justice, not murder. Still, yes, I believe if you cheer for the Ravens with Ray Lewis on the team, you may not "agree with murder", but you are excusing it because of his athletic prowess and definitely should be reassessing priorities.

 

One of the things I struggle with as a Nebraska fan, is how my support of the team is a tacit endorsement of Ron Brown's openly bigoted stance against homosexuals. While I have not disavowed my Husker allegiances, I've purposefully avoided spending money on Husker related items that would end up, in part, paying his salary.

 

4) This is not even a remotely valid analogy.

 

5) See 2.

 

6) In part, yes. Anyone who purchases gas from BP says, their convenience is more important than the environmental catastrophe that they unleashed on the gulf. This is why I never buy from BP. I refuse to support them in any way.

[Hammerhead]

It is amazing how obsessed some are with tearing down spiritual worship and people who believe in God.

Does your spiritual worship include the rape of children? If not . . . well you might want to rethink this.

I think condemning all Catholics because the Catholic church's hierarchy is corrupt is a bit much.

Did someone do this?

You are all over the place.

 

How so?

 

If I'm reading his posts correctly, both of the posts you quoted speak to the point that he's not condemning the practice of the Catholic faith, he's condeming the institution.

 

But then, most Catholics I know seem to believe that missing church is an unforgivable sin, so perhaps he is indirectly condemning the practice of the Catholic faith.

[carlfense]

If I'm reading his posts correctly, both of the posts you quoted speak to the point that he's not condemning the practice of the Catholic faith, he's condeming the institution.

That was the intent . . .

[Ziggy]

I am not a Catholic, nor do I really like the system they run. But having said that. This whole thread is horse crap. Large organizations are gonna have bad apples, power is gonna make people do stupid things to retain that power. If you support democrats or teachers unions, you are just as guilty as the Catholic church. Barely a week goes by that we don't hear about a teacher sexually abusing children in their care. The problems is the cases we never hear about, the cases that are just swept under the rug.....Yea yea I know, proof or it didn't happen. But I am sure plenty of us on here have stories of teacher or coaches who have taken advantage of their situation and never been formally charged (I knew of a few in my school alone). It happens, doesn't make the people who support the Teachers Unions wrong because they support them, it doesn't mean democrats who support teachers unions are bad or stupid. When you have a organization that encompasses millions of people its bound to have issues.

 

Example for Nebraska, if you support the Huskers in any way, you support catholic thinking, heterosexual only, because we have one coach who thinks that way. Condemning everyone for the mistakes of a few is along the lines of racism, sexism and other isms that are mean and stuff......

[JJ Husker]

Debuted on HBO last night. Absolutely chilling.

 

If you are still Catholic . . . why? The evidence is overwhelming. How is this excused?

 

https://www.hbo.com/...ulpa/index.html

 

If someone regularly attends Mass and gives to the Church without taking any sort of action to ensure that the Church purges this evil and refrains from this sort of behavior in the future they excuse this behavior.

 

Now that other stuff that you'd argued? I'm sure that can't be categorized as "deflecting and convoluting the discussion," right? I mean . . . that would excuse you from having to respond . . . and we might never know if the Pope is Catholic.

If I'm reading his posts correctly, both of the posts you quoted speak to the point that he's not condemning the practice of the Catholic faith, he's condeming the institution.

That was the intent . . .

 

If that was the intent, you failed in a couple of posts to differentiate between the Catholic faith and the institution of the church. Your OP did not specify but rather insinuated that if a person is still Catholic then they must excuse the behavior. You then went on further to imply that Catholics who regularly attend mass and give to the church must therefore excuse this behavior.

 

I left the qualifier "without taking any sort of action" for further discussion because, possibly this is where the real difference is for you. I will explain my position and then you can let me know if that is good enough for you for me to remain Catholic (not that I really care but I would like to understand your position better). I do not presume to think that anyone endorses this behavior whether or not they regularly attend mass and/or still contribute to the church. It is abhorrent behavior and I trust that all human beings (with the possible exception of those who committed the acts and those who actively covered them up) do not excuse this behavior. I regularly attend mass and I still give to the church. However, I have become more cognizant of how I give to the church and to what extra causes I give to. I attempt to give only to my local parish and refrain from giving to larger archdiocese requests or things that sound like the money will be passed up the chain. This change in my giving is a direct result of the molestation issue and also because I just plain don't care much for how overblown the heirarchy of the church is. We recently had a meeting for a large fundraiser for the seminary in Denver and I made a point to question them about the training the seminarians receive in regards to child molestation and I requested that they conduct more advanced screening of their candidates to help reduce/eliminate these occurances. This occurred in our parish hall with many other parishiners present. Nobody acted like I was out of line bringing that up and many joined in the discussion requesting the same assurances. I do not believe anybody in that meeting was excusing the behavior and we were doing what we could to raise our concerns and they seemed to be received seriously and you could tell it was not the first time they had had to answer this line of questioning. Additionally, we have had numerous letters from the archbishop read in open church during mass addressing this issue. It is not being ignored or excused. I guess my point is, don't assume people are ignoring this problem or excusing it simply because they still practice their faith, attend mass, or even still contribute funds even if a portion of those funds more than likely end up moving up the chain. It is a large institution and it will take some time to get it all turned around. They realize the people are restless and not happy with them.

 

I would agree that the onus for correcting this resides with the church members but I don't think we are the only ones who are responsible for making sure it gets corrected. It is a human problem that was exacerbated by coverups within the institution. It is everyones responsiblity to hold their feet to the fire. Money may talk loudly but I believe it is everyones responsibility to see that it gets corrected. I don't think simply walking away and disassociating, or encouraging that type of action, is near as effective as staying within the church and raising the issue at opportune times and helping to make sure it doesn't just get swept under the rug until the next occurance. Sorry if you think I am overreacting but, just imagine how you would feel if somebody were accusing you of excusing molestation and pedophiles. It is probably something that should be examined more before making assumptions about it.

 

BTW- I started to watch the documentary last night but fell asleep. It is rather slow moving, and somber. I will attempt it again when I have a chance of staying with it for the whole time.

[carlfense]

If that was the intent, you failed in a couple of posts to differentiate between the Catholic faith and the institution of the church.

I apologize if that has caused confusion. Let me state one more time, unequivocally, that the Catholic faith is not the Catholic hierarchy. I still don't think that this should require clarification . . . it's common sense. I don't recall reading about the Vatican or the Pope in the Bible.

 

Your OP did not specify but rather insinuated that if a person is still Catholic then they must excuse the behavior.

I definitely should have been more specific in the OP. It was short, vague, and frankly . . . the film still had me a bit shell shocked. (My wife's reaction was: "I'm ashamed to have been baptized Catholic." So I certainly wasn't the only one with a visceral reaction.)

 

You then went on further to imply that Catholics who regularly attend mass and give to the church must therefore excuse this behavior.

Those were the two most obvious examples that I could think of that would support (financially and otherwise) the church leadership.

 

I left the qualifier "without taking any sort of action" for further discussion because, possibly this is where the real difference is for you. I will explain my position and then you can let me know if that is good enough for you for me to remain Catholic (not that I really care but I would like to understand your position better). I do not presume to think that anyone endorses this behavior whether or not they regularly attend mass and/or still contribute to the church. It is abhorrent behavior and I trust that all human beings (with the possible exception of those who committed the acts and those who actively covered them up) do not excuse this behavior. I regularly attend mass and I still give to the church. However, I have become more cognizant of how I give to the church and to what extra causes I give to. I attempt to give only to my local parish and refrain from giving to larger archdiocese requests or things that sound like the money will be passed up the chain. This change in my giving is a direct result of the molestation issue and also because I just plain don't care much for how overblown the heirarchy of the church is. We recently had a meeting for a large fundraiser for the seminary in Denver and I made a point to question them about the training the seminarians receive in regards to child molestation and I requested that they conduct more advanced screening of their candidates to help reduce/eliminate these occurances. This occurred in our parish hall with many other parishiners present. Nobody acted like I was out of line bringing that up and many joined in the discussion requesting the same assurances. I do not believe anybody in that meeting was excusing the behavior and we were doing what we could to raise our concerns and they seemed to be received seriously and you could tell it was not the first time they had had to answer this line of questioning.

That's exactly the sort of action that I was referencing.

[carlfense]

Additionally, we have had numerous letters from the archbishop read in open church during mass addressing this issue.

Letters won't offer much comfort to raped children. I'd prefer to see offenders turned over to authorities, documents released, individuals involved in the cover up (like the current Pope) held accountable, etc.

 

It is not being ignored or excused.

Given the actions of many involved parties and their continued prominent role within the church . . . we're going to have to disagree.

 

I guess my point is, don't assume people are ignoring this problem or excusing it simply because they still practice their faith, attend mass, or even still contribute funds even if a portion of those funds more than likely end up moving up the chain. It is a large institution and it will take some time to get it all turned around. They realize the people are restless and not happy with them.

 

I would agree that the onus for correcting this resides with the church members but I don't think we are the only ones who are responsible for making sure it gets corrected. It is a human problem that was exacerbated by coverups within the institution. It is everyones responsiblity to hold their feet to the fire. Money may talk loudly but I believe it is everyones responsibility to see that it gets corrected. I don't think simply walking away and disassociating, or encouraging that type of action, is near as effective as staying within the church and raising the issue at opportune times and helping to make sure it doesn't just get swept under the rug until the next occurance. Sorry if you think I am overreacting but, just imagine how you would feel if somebody were accusing you of excusing molestation and pedophiles. It is probably something that should be examined more before making assumptions about it.

 

BTW- I started to watch the documentary last night but fell asleep. It is rather slow moving, and somber. I will attempt it again when I have a chance of staying with it for the whole time.

[JJ Husker]

Thanks carl. And it was not my intent to say that absolutely nobody within the church ignored or excused these travesties. It is common knowledge that a select few scum bags did in fact ignore, excuse, and coverup. My point was that the membership at large does not condone it and finds it quite disturbing. I offered the other anecdotes to show that a clear majority within the church are talking about it, addressing it, and trying to make sure it gets corrected.