Have Amercian Colleges Failed US

[knapplc]

No sir, that was not directed at you.

 

 

 

 

And general statement - not every post I make is made as "knapplc the Mod." Sometimes I'm just a guy with an opinion. I'm allowed to do that.

[BigRedBuster]

If you had an employee who was constantly causing dissent, would you let them keep doing so to foster conversation on your work floor? Or would you say something to them, BRB?

 

What if that employee tells you they're just trying to engage people, to learn more? Is there a point where you have to make a judgment call, or do you just believe their story and let them be?

I didn't realize we are your employees? I will be looking for my paycheck.

 

Your comment in this post sounds like you think it is your job as s moderator to make sure the discussion gets a certain end result on certain view points.

 

Is that how you see it?

[knapplc]

And that's what I get for trying to reason.

 

Screw it. If this is the kind of thread, and discussion, you guys want, then have at it. I'm done trying to improve the discourse.

[Husker_x]

And that's what I get for trying to reason.

 

Screw it. If this is the kind of thread, and discussion, you guys want, then have at it. I'm done trying to improve the discourse.

 

Don't go! If we all go away, Fox News is all that's left.

 

 

 

On the topic, one of the things I learned in my intolerant liberal college was to check your sources. So for instance, if you ever read anything that starts "I received this email link recently . . ." you should treat it with a high degree of skepticism.

 

And sure enough, the author of this piece could not string together disparate ideas fast enough. Ignorant of context and basic human feeling, even if his overall premise––that there is something wrong with our higher education system––were true, he would be unable to prove it because of his approach. And there is something wrong with it. Several somethings, actually. Not being able to to call someone an "insane" "retard" "tranny" in the classroom is not, however, one of the problems.

[BigRedBuster]

 

And that's what I get for trying to reason.

 

Screw it. If this is the kind of thread, and discussion, you guys want, then have at it. I'm done trying to improve the discourse.

 

Don't go! If we all go away, Fox News is all that's left.

 

 

 

On the topic, one of the things I learned in my intolerant liberal college was to check your sources. So for instance, if you ever read anything that starts "I received this email link recently . . ." you should treat it with a high degree of skepticism.

 

And sure enough, the author of this piece could not string together disparate ideas fast enough. Ignorant of context and basic human feeling, even if his overall premise––that there is something wrong with our higher education system––were true, he would be unable to prove it because of his approach. And there is something wrong with it. Several somethings, actually. Not being able to to call someone an "insane" "retard" "tranny" in the classroom is not, however, one of the problems.

 

What does Fox News have to do with this?

[ZRod]

 

 

And that's what I get for trying to reason.

Screw it. If this is the kind of thread, and discussion, you guys want, then have at it. I'm done trying to improve the discourse.

 

Don't go! If we all go away, Fox News is all that's left.

 

 

 

On the topic, one of the things I learned in my intolerant liberal college was to check your sources. So for instance, if you ever read anything that starts "I received this email link recently . . ." you should treat it with a high degree of skepticism.

 

And sure enough, the author of this piece could not string together disparate ideas fast enough. Ignorant of context and basic human feeling, even if his overall premise––that there is something wrong with our higher education system––were true, he would be unable to prove it because of his approach. And there is something wrong with it. Several somethings, actually. Not being able to to call someone an "insane" "retard" "tranny" in the classroom is not, however, one of the problems.

What does Fox News have to do with this?

Everything!

[TGHusker]

I don't think TGHusker is hostile.

 

And I haven't deleted, closed, locked or removed any posts or threads here. So everyone flipping their lid over how this board should be modded, chill. I think I know what I'm doing.

Thanks Knapp for acknowledging that I'm not hostile. I'm also not a propagandist either - not any more than those less conservative are propagandists for the left.

Now getting back on topic,

An article discussing the tension between 'hate speech codes' and 'free speech':

 

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v5n2/codes.html

 

There are compelling points on both sides of the argument

 

 

The following are links from Fire - the organization I noted in an earlier post started by non-conservative Greg Lukianoff. These links provide info to the types of cases they are working on. There is much more detail on their website. They have done work on behalf of students and faculty crossing the full realm of the political/social spectrum in which, due process, conscience and religious liberty rights were violated.

 

https://www.thefire.org/top-cases/

 

https://www.thefire.org/fire-brings-four-free-speech-lawsuits-in-one-day/

 

https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/freedom-of-conscience/

https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/due-process/

https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/religious-liberty/

 

Interview by John Stossel of Greg Lukianoff on the issue:

 

http://stosselintheclassroom.org/videos/college_campuses_limiting_free_speech/

 

 

A couple examples to highlight the issue:

http://www.kcchronicle.com/2015/01/23/federal-judge-rules-against-waubonsee-community-college-in-free-speech-lawsuit/av3c9ut/

http://www.campussafetymagazine.com/article/college_reaches_110k_free_speech_settlement_with_student

 

This comment, from a lawyer representing a student summed it up this way:

Colleges should be the marketplace of ideas,” said Senior Legal Counsel David Hacker. “Free speech should not be censored or limited to a ridiculously small area on campus, nor should students need permission to hand out fliers. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech for all students in the outdoor areas of campus, regardless of their religious or political beliefs.”

[NUance]

I received this eml link recently and thought I'd share for discussion. Questions that it brings up:

 

Is political correctness getting in the way of quality education?

 

Getting back to your original post, I'd have to say 'no' to this. Running a university is a balancing act that has to be struck somewhere between maintaining complete order in all things and letting the inmates run the asylum. American universities do a pretty fair job of maintaining an atmosphere conducive to free thinking while still providing an education to student who want one.

 

 

 

Is political correctness getting in the way of 1st amendment free speech?

 

This may be true to a very limited extent, but for good reason. Recall last month the OU students and their bawdy racist song? They were probably within their Constitutional First Amendment rights to sing that song. But no university could allow behavior like that to exist. It would quickly spiral out of hand, leading to prejudice and alienating a significant segment of students.

 

 

Is PC damaging the ability to have free expression of thought in the class room?

 

See above. The reining in of free expression on U.S. campuses is de minimis, and for the most part, necessary.

 

 

/JMHO

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

And that's what I get for trying to reason.

Screw it. If this is the kind of thread, and discussion, you guys want, then have at it. I'm done trying to improve the discourse.

Don't go! If we all go away, Fox News is all that's left.

 

 

 

On the topic, one of the things I learned in my intolerant liberal college was to check your sources. So for instance, if you ever read anything that starts "I received this email link recently . . ." you should treat it with a high degree of skepticism.

 

And sure enough, the author of this piece could not string together disparate ideas fast enough. Ignorant of context and basic human feeling, even if his overall premise––that there is something wrong with our higher education system––were true, he would be unable to prove it because of his approach. And there is something wrong with it. Several somethings, actually. Not being able to to call someone an "insane" "retard" "tranny" in the classroom is not, however, one of the problems.

What does Fox News have to do with this?

Everything!

 

 

I don't see it mentioned anywhere and I don't see any links to it?

[TGHusker]

 

I received this eml link recently and thought I'd share for discussion. Questions that it brings up:

 

Is political correctness getting in the way of quality education?

 

Getting back to your original post, I'd have to say 'no' to this. Running a university is a balancing act that has to be struck somewhere between maintaining complete order in all things and letting the inmates run the asylum. American universities do a pretty fair job of maintaining an atmosphere conducive to free thinking while still providing an education to student who want one.

 

 

 

Is political correctness getting in the way of 1st amendment free speech?

 

This may be true to a very limited extent, but for good reason. Recall last month the OU students and their bawdy racist song? They were probably within their Constitutional First Amendment rights to sing that song. But no university could allow behavior like that to exist. It would quickly spiral out of hand, leading to prejudice and alienating a significant segment of students.

 

 

Is PC damaging the ability to have free expression of thought in the class room?

 

See above. The reining in of free expression on U.S. campuses is de minimis, and for the most part, necessary.

 

 

/JMHO

 

Good post NUance. I had to laugh about the 'inmates run the asylum' comment. This is true - we could end up wt another 1960s Berkley situation. There does need to be a balance in free speech and admin constraints.

[ZRod]

 

 

 

 

And that's what I get for trying to reason.

Screw it. If this is the kind of thread, and discussion, you guys want, then have at it. I'm done trying to improve the discourse.

Don't go! If we all go away, Fox News is all that's left.

 

 

 

On the topic, one of the things I learned in my intolerant liberal college was to check your sources. So for instance, if you ever read anything that starts "I received this email link recently . . ." you should treat it with a high degree of skepticism.

 

And sure enough, the author of this piece could not string together disparate ideas fast enough. Ignorant of context and basic human feeling, even if his overall premise––that there is something wrong with our higher education system––were true, he would be unable to prove it because of his approach. And there is something wrong with it. Several somethings, actually. Not being able to to call someone an "insane" "retard" "tranny" in the classroom is not, however, one of the problems.

What does Fox News have to do with this?

Everything!

 

 

I don't see it mentioned anywhere and I don't see any links to it?

 

Fox News is the antithesis of everything good, you know this.

[KazLong]

College is college. It is not perfect, that said it is good for some, and life ruining for others.

 

I believe the price has gone to high, for the return on the investment.

 

When I attended NU, the cost was a whole heck of a lot cheaper. Even when I attend university, our job fairs were of laughably bad employers. I believe free education should be an option for all, if willing to play the game, e.g. military service, civil service, something.

 

The new form of student debt we are setting on students is a new form of slavery, or bonded servitude. The idea that college for all however, has risen out of a lack of good paying manufacturing jobs that have left this Country. If we do not have factories like we did prior to the 70s do we really need all of these business majors? Not a lot of foremen jobs in this Country that are avaliable unless your father owns the plant or construction crew, or you have worked your way up. I worked retail while in college and several people who worked with me, continued to work entry level retail jobs with there college degrees, while those without continued to be promoted based upon preformance. Those with the degrees did not move up, while those with managment experience continued to move up. I recieved my college degree as a means to an end, higher education was always my goal, however those that think bc they have a, BA, BS MBA etc will land a dream job, experience is what matters to most employers.

 

A friend of mine, son failed out of ISU, he however continued to self teach, self learn and eventually wrote an algorithm that got him recruited by Google, He eventually finished his college degree for promotion potential at Google, however how many ISU grads are getting recruited off of ISU campus to work for Google out of the gate?

 

I contracted for Google for a while, however my degree had nothing to do with it, I did not even have my degree finished when I was recruited, it was work I had done on my own free time. Did the tools the Unv, of Nebraska gave me help me do this project? Yes. Did Unv, of Neb have any clue that those would help me, or even offer me a suggestion of how to get recruited? Hell no.

 

State schools have done a good job of keeping there cost low compared to private run, for profit colleges, yes those exist.

 

Two of my sisters have done very well professionally as sales person with high school degrees. I wish I had there income without student debt. However most high school grads do not have that income. College to me is a lottery ticket, that is the cost to play. That said I wish college was free to all who qualify.

 

I had another friend at a Unv, we are all dear to, told to stop failing so many students in his progaming class, he was failing them for cheating, blatant copy / paste of code from one another. He pointed out that failing was the lesser of two options first being seeking them being kicked out of school. Eventually he settled to just give them zeros for the assignments they cheated on, that too resulted in too many people failing, so eventually he quit due to disgust with the system. Unv, even State schools have become Big Business. Many of you wont believe it, but a lot of foreigners attend Unv, and they pay cash up front, fail them even if they are cheating and the powers that be, go crazy.

 

I remember my senior year, we had an adjunct that retired from working at NYT, he had what I considered a very easy quiz at the start of each class, it was the assigned reading just really the bullet points from each chapter, if you skimmed the chapter you were sure to get a B or an A, I remember mass protest from students on feed back day citing this is the only book they had read in college and how his requirements were outrageous.

 

College seems to be the only industry where the consumer wants to be cheated. I see the PC aspects the same symptom of an over all larger problem, we are letting the inmates run the asylums at most colleges.

 

As to even higher education, when completing my final degree, I had a good friend who I took a class with our most liberal professor at our school, he would make valid points every class when called upon cited by the reading and other sources. One day the professor called on him and he goes I really dont have an comment, she inquired as to why, he replied because everytime I do you just say thats interesting and move on I do not feel my points are taken into consideration you have your own agenda, the professor assured him that his points would be considered and discussed, he wrote a thesis on this topic for his masters, he gave a well thought out speech supported by several articles and sources, he had his priorly wrote thesis on his laptop he used it for reference, after the completion of his point the professor paused for what felt like 5 mins, she looked up and said, well thats interesting, then moved on without giving his points any discussion or thought. He has a masters in economics and the topic was college cost and the injustice college is doing to students sense the Federal Gov began giving blank checks to students, uninformed consumers to purchase educations with little to no over sight or requirements for return on investments. He was a Federalist, and often called her on her naive view points, however informed dissenting voices are not called upon, instead she would often call upon others in our group not so well informed, like myself I would often ask to phone a friend and would let him speak for me. I do remember other propaganda subjects that this professor would cite out dated, poorly researched, or just plain wrong positions and forward them as fact, I reported her to the Unv, for these actions, citing hand outs etc, no action was taken, got to love tenure.

 

So yes there are horror stories from college, I can also offer stories of loving, caring professors that went out of there way to help form me as a young man, that really cared and went above and beyond. Unv are ran by man and just like anything else ran by man it is flawed, however there is no silver bullet.

 

I came to college with a sevre inability to write or speak well, there answer to me was that should of been taken care of in HS, in HS the answer was MS, in MS it was elementary, I have taken steps after school to try and improve my written communications, however it seems college says this is the mold if you do not fit it, to bad for you! I however exceeded and excelled playing to my other strengths such as math.

 

There is no silver bullet, in America we like to think in black and white, God Good, Satan Bad, usually most things are grey.

 

As to the liberalism of colleges, I will leave you with this quote credited to many authors.

 

If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain And if you are not a moderate by 45 you have no common sense.

 

[TGHusker]

College is college. It is not perfect, that said it is good for some, and life ruining for others.

 

I believe the price has gone to high, for the return on the investment.

 

When I attended NU, the cost was a whole heck of a lot cheaper. Even when I attend university, our job fairs were of laughably bad employers. I believe free education should be an option for all, if willing to play the game, e.g. military service, civil service, something.

 

The new form of student debt we are setting on students is a new form of slavery, or bonded servitude. The idea that college for all however, has risen out of a lack of good paying manufacturing jobs that have left this Country. If we do not have factories like we did prior to the 70s do we really need all of these business majors? Not a lot of foremen jobs in this Country that are avaliable unless your father owns the plant or construction crew, or you have worked your way up. I worked retail while in college and several people who worked with me, continued to work entry level retail jobs with there college degrees, while those without continued to be promoted based upon preformance. Those with the degrees did not move up, while those with managment experience continued to move up. I recieved my college degree as a means to an end, higher education was always my goal, however those that think bc they have a, BA, BS MBA etc will land a dream job, experience is what matters to most employers.

 

A friend of mine, son failed out of ISU, he however continued to self teach, self learn and eventually wrote an algorithm that got him recruited by Google, He eventually finished his college degree for promotion potential at Google, however how many ISU grads are getting recruited off of ISU campus to work for Google out of the gate?

 

I contracted for Google for a while, however my degree had nothing to do with it, I did not even have my degree finished when I was recruited, it was work I had done on my own free time. Did the tools the Unv, of Nebraska gave me help me do this project? Yes. Did Unv, of Neb have any clue that those would help me, or even offer me a suggestion of how to get recruited? Hell no.

 

State schools have done a good job of keeping there cost low compared to private run, for profit colleges, yes those exist.

 

Two of my sisters have done very well professionally as sales person with high school degrees. I wish I had there income without student debt. However most high school grads do not have that income. College to me is a lottery ticket, that is the cost to play. That said I wish college was free to all who qualify.

 

As to the liberalism of colleges, I will leave you with this quote credited to many authors.

 

If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain

Good post. The issue with limited manufacturing jobs is one a big one. And you are correct about student debt. We were fortunate in that one of our sons was a National Merit Scholar and basically got his education paid for and our other son wasn't far behind and got large scholarships (both ended up being named as the at top finance student the year they graduated - smarter than their proud dad!). I don't know what we and they would have done if they went to the same school without that aid (excellent private univ, ranked high). School debt will drive a change in the way we do college and post high school education. We are supporting a huge brick and mortar institution in spite of modern tech and new teaching methods. Disclaimer - I teach as an adjunct (business) and do enjoy the classroom experience much more than the on line experience.

[TGHusker]

 

 

 

 

If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain And if you are not a moderate by 45 you have no common sense.

 

 

good one