If Stephen Fry Met God - Revisited God & Problem of Evil

[Landlord]

I'm on your side. I'm wondering why he would ask such a thing of you when he has, quite literally, unlimited power to do the job himself. Making us lowly thinking apes the conveyor of the most important message mankind has or will ever hear is a terrible idea.

 

 

 

Even if mankind wasn't the channel through which the message came, it still needs to come through the channel of our perception at some point, and my main thought is that no matter what God would hypothetically do, there would still be the skeptics asking for more.

 

If our diety coalesced into a giant rock wall to break killer tidal waves and physically bound the hand of an abusive husband from moving to strike his wife and consistently tangibly revealed itself and it's power, well then wouldn't mankind, after this becoming a regular thing, just recategorize these things as just being 'the way the world works', and continue to demand more?

 

Maybe not, but I feel like that's the main weakness of the skeptic's position. With respect to you, I think it's not as much that you have just chosen given the particular set of realities and circumstances of our universe not to believe, but that you are devoted to being unwilling to believe regardless of what evidences would actually be placed in front of you in a different universe. The same way that every culture has micro blind spots (think blatant racism in America past) that are unseen even by rational and good folk, that we also have macro blind spots of how our understanding of what's rational and pure is in all reality processed through a ton of different cognitive filters that we aren't aware of.

 

Hopefully that was coherent.

[knapplc]

Knapp,

 

This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had at a graduation reception last Saturday. I walked in wearing a purple shirt (don't laugh it's an awesome shirt). Anyway, my friend looks and me and laughs, "Well, at least I didn't wear a pink shirt". I looked puzzled and he leaned over and said...."ummm...it's not pink is it?" You see, he is extremely color blind so he doesn't see purple, he sees pink.

 

Now, if he didn't believe me that it was purple, I would have absolutely no way in the world of proving to him that it's purple because, he sees pink.

 

So....back to this conversation. When you say, "Show me your God", all I can do is tell you why I believe he exists and the evidence I have seen/felt/experienced that proves that to me. If that evidence isn't good enough for someone who doesn't see and experience the same thing, I can't do anything about it other than live my life in a manner that doesn't turn him off to the possibility of how I believe. That is how I see my spiritual goal in life. I can't convince people there is a God who don't have any desire or reason to believe. But, as a Christian, i need to live my life in a manner so that if someone opens up the possibility of God, I didn't do something to deter them from what I believe.

 

You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. I can't walk in with a "person" to your office and say..."Hey...let me introduce God". If that is what people are asking, then it's not going to happen.

 

Now, if I tell my friend that my shirt is purple and he gets in a big argument with me that it's pink, then, fine, prove to me it's pink. I might even show him the tag it came with when I purchased it that says purple and he will say..."Ha...that manufacturer only wants you to think it's purple."

 

You know what??? if that's the conversation, then so be it.

I get that analogy. I'm colorblind, like your friend. I see lots of colors, just probably not the same ones or the same way you see them.

 

The only thing I can say in response to that is, if you were born in the Middle East, you'd likely have the exact same conviction, the same sights, feelings & experiences, but you'd believe in Allah.

 

I just can't get past that.

[Hammerhead]

 

I'm on your side. I'm wondering why he would ask such a thing of you when he has, quite literally, unlimited power to do the job himself. Making us lowly thinking apes the conveyor of the most important message mankind has or will ever hear is a terrible idea.

 

 

 

Even if mankind wasn't the channel through which the message came, it still needs to come through the channel of our perception at some point, and my main thought is that no matter what God would hypothetically do, there would still be the skeptics asking for more.

 

If our diety coalesced into a giant rock wall to break killer tidal waves and physically bound the hand of an abusive husband from moving to strike his wife and consistently tangibly revealed itself and it's power, well then wouldn't mankind, after this becoming a regular thing, just recategorize these things as just being 'the way the world works', and continue to demand more?

 

Maybe not, but I feel like that's the main weakness of the skeptic's position. With respect to you, I think it's not as much that you have just chosen given the particular set of realities and circumstances of our universe not to believe, but that you are devoted to being unwilling to believe regardless of what evidences would actually be placed in front of you in a different universe. The same way that every culture has micro blind spots (think blatant racism in America past) that are unseen even by rational and good folk, that we also have macro blind spots of how our understanding of what's rational and pure is in all reality processed through a ton of different cognitive filters that we aren't aware of.

 

Hopefully that was coherent.

 

 

There would certainly be fewer skeptics. Those who don't experience these things firsthand would still likely be skeptical even when told what happened by those who did, and understandably so. If we did experience those things, though, surely at the very least we'd see the smoke and try to determine where it came from.

 

I can't speak for all atheists, but I believe that most of us, given compelling evidence, would renounce our position. The difference lies in what evidence would be considered compelling and what wouldn't.

[BigRedBuster]

 

Knapp,

 

This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had at a graduation reception last Saturday. I walked in wearing a purple shirt (don't laugh it's an awesome shirt). Anyway, my friend looks and me and laughs, "Well, at least I didn't wear a pink shirt". I looked puzzled and he leaned over and said...."ummm...it's not pink is it?" You see, he is extremely color blind so he doesn't see purple, he sees pink.

 

Now, if he didn't believe me that it was purple, I would have absolutely no way in the world of proving to him that it's purple because, he sees pink.

 

So....back to this conversation. When you say, "Show me your God", all I can do is tell you why I believe he exists and the evidence I have seen/felt/experienced that proves that to me. If that evidence isn't good enough for someone who doesn't see and experience the same thing, I can't do anything about it other than live my life in a manner that doesn't turn him off to the possibility of how I believe. That is how I see my spiritual goal in life. I can't convince people there is a God who don't have any desire or reason to believe. But, as a Christian, i need to live my life in a manner so that if someone opens up the possibility of God, I didn't do something to deter them from what I believe.

 

You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. I can't walk in with a "person" to your office and say..."Hey...let me introduce God". If that is what people are asking, then it's not going to happen.

 

Now, if I tell my friend that my shirt is purple and he gets in a big argument with me that it's pink, then, fine, prove to me it's pink. I might even show him the tag it came with when I purchased it that says purple and he will say..."Ha...that manufacturer only wants you to think it's purple."

 

You know what??? if that's the conversation, then so be it.

I get that analogy. I'm colorblind, like your friend. I see lots of colors, just probably not the same ones or the same way you see them.

 

The only thing I can say in response to that is, if you were born in the Middle East, you'd likely have the exact same conviction, the same sights, feelings & experiences, but you'd believe in Allah.

 

I just can't get past that.

 

And, I fully understand that conundrum.

 

My opinion is though, that is only a conundrum if you view those religions today without looking back in history to see where those religions came from.

 

Most people in the world believe in some form of an Abrahamic Religion. Both Christianity (coming from Judaism) and Islam are both Abrahamic Religions meaning they some how go back to Abraham. Here is an interesting site that talks about all three religions. LINK I just found this site and haven't read much on it. Since I find the relationship between these three religions interesting, I think I will spend quite a bit of time here reading. Abrahamic religions are by far the largest type of religion in the world making up 54% of the world population. 30% are some other type of religion and 16% claims no organized religion. WIKI

 

Both Christianity and Islam actually share way more than what people think. Among them is:

"Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth" (Qur'an, Sahih International 7:54)

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Holy Bible, New International Version, Genisis 1:1)

 

 

Now, if all three religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) all go through Abraham, then everything before Abraham in all three religions is the same. Meaning, all three worship the same God. The Christian "God" is the same God as the Islamic "Allah".

 

Now, at least for people within these religions, everything after Abraham is debatable. Is Jesus a Prophet, false Prophet or the Messiah? It's truly an extremely interesting question for me.

 

To me, just because there was a split and some people call God "God" and some people call him "Allah", doesn't mean there is no God. It simply means that we humans have struggled through out the centuries with getting along and being nice to each other.

[Hammerhead]

 

 

Knapp,

 

This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had at a graduation reception last Saturday. I walked in wearing a purple shirt (don't laugh it's an awesome shirt). Anyway, my friend looks and me and laughs, "Well, at least I didn't wear a pink shirt". I looked puzzled and he leaned over and said...."ummm...it's not pink is it?" You see, he is extremely color blind so he doesn't see purple, he sees pink.

 

Now, if he didn't believe me that it was purple, I would have absolutely no way in the world of proving to him that it's purple because, he sees pink.

 

So....back to this conversation. When you say, "Show me your God", all I can do is tell you why I believe he exists and the evidence I have seen/felt/experienced that proves that to me. If that evidence isn't good enough for someone who doesn't see and experience the same thing, I can't do anything about it other than live my life in a manner that doesn't turn him off to the possibility of how I believe. That is how I see my spiritual goal in life. I can't convince people there is a God who don't have any desire or reason to believe. But, as a Christian, i need to live my life in a manner so that if someone opens up the possibility of God, I didn't do something to deter them from what I believe.

 

You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe. I can't walk in with a "person" to your office and say..."Hey...let me introduce God". If that is what people are asking, then it's not going to happen.

 

Now, if I tell my friend that my shirt is purple and he gets in a big argument with me that it's pink, then, fine, prove to me it's pink. I might even show him the tag it came with when I purchased it that says purple and he will say..."Ha...that manufacturer only wants you to think it's purple."

 

You know what??? if that's the conversation, then so be it.

I get that analogy. I'm colorblind, like your friend. I see lots of colors, just probably not the same ones or the same way you see them.

 

The only thing I can say in response to that is, if you were born in the Middle East, you'd likely have the exact same conviction, the same sights, feelings & experiences, but you'd believe in Allah.

 

I just can't get past that.

 

And, I fully understand that conundrum.

 

My opinion is though, that is only a conundrum if you view those religions today without looking back in history to see where those religions came from.

 

Most people in the world believe in some form of an Abrahamic Religion. Both Christianity (coming from Judaism) and Islam are both Abrahamic Religions meaning they some how go back to Abraham. Here is an interesting site that talks about all three religions. LINK I just found this site and haven't read much on it. Since I find the relationship between these three religions interesting, I think I will spend quite a bit of time here reading. Abrahamic religions are by far the largest type of religion in the world making up 54% of the world population. 30% are some other type of religion and 16% claims no organized religion. WIKI

 

Both Christianity and Islam actually share way more than what people think. Among them is:

"Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth" (Qur'an, Sahih International 7:54)

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Holy Bible, New International Version, Genisis 1:1)

 

 

Now, if all three religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) all go through Abraham, then everything before Abraham in all three religions is the same. Meaning, all three worship the same God. The Christian "God" is the same God as the Islamic "Allah".

 

Now, at least for people within these religions, everything after Abraham is debatable. Is Jesus a Prophet, false Prophet or the Messiah? It's truly an extremely interesting question for me.

 

To me, just because there was a split and some people call God "God" and some people call him "Allah", doesn't mean there is no God. It simply means that we humans have struggled through out the centuries with getting along and being nice to each other.

 

 

But if you look at the Christian Holy Trinity, that brings up another question: if Jesus is a part of the Trinity, and the Trinity represents God himself, are you sure that they worship the same god? Christianity seems to require belief that Jesus is a prophet, whereas (if I understand correctly) Judaism posits that Jesus isn't a prophet and that one hasn't been sent yet, so even if theoretically the god is the same, do practitioners of both religions meet the spiritual requirements to be accepted into Heaven?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

But if you look at the Christian Holy Trinity, that brings up another question: if Jesus is a part of the Trinity, and the Trinity represents God himself, are you sure that they worship the same god? Christianity seems to require belief that Jesus is a prophet, whereas (if I understand correctly) Judaism posits that Jesus isn't a prophet and that one hasn't been sent yet, so even if theoretically the god is the same, do practitioners of both religions meet the spiritual requirements to be accepted into Heaven?

 

My post was an answer to Knapp who (I believe) is claiming there is no God because if I were born in Iran, I would be worshiping a different God.

Well, my answer to that is, it's the same God but different religions and traditions used to worship and follow what humans believe that "God" wants.

 

As for your question about Jesus/the Trinity and if that means the religions are worshiping the same God, I fail to see how that makes a difference in the question of "Is there a God". Jesus and Muhammed came after Abraham.

[zoogs]

Maybe India would have been a better statement than Iran?

 

Or 1000 BC Egypt?

 

Or, continuing on with the comparisons between the Abrahimic Religions -- which share the same roots as well as originated in the same part of the world. If they are indeed different flavors and traditions of worshipping the same God, what separates the Bible and its specific teachings over those of the Qu'ran? Aren't they then human creations on equal footing? If that is the position, then why not simply worship a God, that is to say, Deism -- and not revere any particular text or set of traditions as holy to the exclusion of all others.

[Hammerhead]

 

 

 

 

But if you look at the Christian Holy Trinity, that brings up another question: if Jesus is a part of the Trinity, and the Trinity represents God himself, are you sure that they worship the same god? Christianity seems to require belief that Jesus is a prophet, whereas (if I understand correctly) Judaism posits that Jesus isn't a prophet and that one hasn't been sent yet, so even if theoretically the god is the same, do practitioners of both religions meet the spiritual requirements to be accepted into Heaven?

 

My post was an answer to Knapp who (I believe) is claiming there is no God because if I were born in Iran, I would be worshiping a different God.

Well, my answer to that is, it's the same God but different religions and traditions used to worship and follow what humans believe that "God" wants.

 

As for your question about Jesus/the Trinity and if that means the religions are worshiping the same God, I fail to see how that makes a difference in the question of "Is there a God". Jesus and Muhammed came after Abraham.

 

 

The question isn't that direct. In this case, it's "If people are worshiping different deities, and none of them have any more proof than the other that their deity is the correct one, why should I believe that any of them are correct?"

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

 

But if you look at the Christian Holy Trinity, that brings up another question: if Jesus is a part of the Trinity, and the Trinity represents God himself, are you sure that they worship the same god? Christianity seems to require belief that Jesus is a prophet, whereas (if I understand correctly) Judaism posits that Jesus isn't a prophet and that one hasn't been sent yet, so even if theoretically the god is the same, do practitioners of both religions meet the spiritual requirements to be accepted into Heaven?

 

My post was an answer to Knapp who (I believe) is claiming there is no God because if I were born in Iran, I would be worshiping a different God.

Well, my answer to that is, it's the same God but different religions and traditions used to worship and follow what humans believe that "God" wants.

 

As for your question about Jesus/the Trinity and if that means the religions are worshiping the same God, I fail to see how that makes a difference in the question of "Is there a God". Jesus and Muhammed came after Abraham.

 

 

The question isn't that direct. In this case, it's "If people are worshiping different deities, and none of them have any more proof than the other that their deity is the correct one, why should I believe that any of them are correct?"

 

It's the same deity. They are all Abrahamic religions so they all come from Abraham in some way. They all are talking about the same God that was revealed to Abraham.

[knapplc]

 

But if you look at the Christian Holy Trinity, that brings up another question: if Jesus is a part of the Trinity, and the Trinity represents God himself, are you sure that they worship the same god? Christianity seems to require belief that Jesus is a prophet, whereas (if I understand correctly) Judaism posits that Jesus isn't a prophet and that one hasn't been sent yet, so even if theoretically the god is the same, do practitioners of both religions meet the spiritual requirements to be accepted into Heaven?

My post was an answer to Knapp who (I believe) is claiming there is no God because if I were born in Iran, I would be worshiping a different God.

Well, my answer to that is, it's the same God but different religions and traditions used to worship and follow what humans believe that "God" wants.

 

As for your question about Jesus/the Trinity and if that means the religions are worshiping the same God, I fail to see how that makes a difference in the question of "Is there a God". Jesus and Muhammed came after Abraham.

 

 

I'm saying that the proofs Christians often use (a calling, God writing things on their heart, their steadfast/firm belief, etc) are not solely found in Christianity, and therefore are not going to be any more valid of a proof than any other religion.

 

There are literally thousands of deities to choose from. Focusing on the Abrahamic religions doesn't do the question justice.

 

Try answering the same question using Vishnu as the example, or Ra, or Quetzalcoatl.

[BigRedBuster]

There are literally thousands of deities to choose from. Focusing on the Abrahamic religions doesn't do the question justice.

 

Try answering the same question using Vishnu as the example, or Ra, or Quetzalcoatl.

I was going off of the example you posed to me.

[knapplc]

 

There are literally thousands of deities to choose from. Focusing on the Abrahamic religions doesn't do the question justice.

 

Try answering the same question using Vishnu as the example, or Ra, or Quetzalcoatl.

I was going off of the example you posed to me.

 

 

OK, but try it with Hathor, or Zeus, or Odin. I said "Allah" because it's the predominant religion in the Middle East today. There are others - Zoroastrianism, among them. Any non-Abrahamic religion is going to have similar tenets, and thus the explanation starts to suffer.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

There are literally thousands of deities to choose from. Focusing on the Abrahamic religions doesn't do the question justice.

 

Try answering the same question using Vishnu as the example, or Ra, or Quetzalcoatl.

I was going off of the example you posed to me.

 

 

OK, but try it with Hathor, or Zeus, or Odin. I said "Allah" because it's the predominant religion in the Middle East today. There are others - Zoroastrianism, among them. Any non-Abrahamic religion is going to have similar tenets, and thus the explanation starts to suffer.

 

I literally know absolutely nothing about any of those so there is no way for me to talk intelligently about them.

But, let me ask this. Just because most people in the world believe in one God and there are relatively a few people who believe in another God, why does that mean there is no such thing as a higher power?

 

Maybe it's just simply one is right and one is wrong. I guess I'm not going to know for sure till I'm dead.

[knapplc]

There very well could be a higher power. Nothing we have says there isn't. We have a bunch of explanations for why things are here that don't require a higher power, but clearly none of them have been proven yet or we wouldn't be having these conversations.

 

I just happen to be listening to this as I type this reply. I love Brian Cox and think he's fascinating. This isn't necessarily germane to this conversation, but "origins" are what we're essentially talking about here, and he hits on that several times.

 

Love the way he over-pronounces his "Gs".

 

[TGHusker]

There very well could be a higher power. Nothing we have says there isn't. We have a bunch of explanations for why things are here that don't require a higher power, but clearly none of them have been proven yet or we wouldn't be having these conversations.

 

I just happen to be listening to this as I type this reply. I love Brian Cox and think he's fascinating. This isn't necessarily germane to this conversation, but "origins" are what we're essentially talking about here, and he hits on that several times.

 

Love the way he over-pronounces his "Gs".

 

Very interesting. Never heard of him before. I'm glad the univ is still expanding and not collapsing Guys like him who know all of this stuff on the univ are incredibility smart - well above my paid grade.

A puzzling question - what is beyond the universe? He said it may go on infinitely however, wouldn't that contradict that there are other universes outside of our own? If one univ is infinite, then it would cover the space where the other universes would be. Did I miss something? Or if the multi universes are floating around in a big room separate from each other - what do you call the space in between the universes. Boy we could get our brain in a cramp real quick here. Only got time to listen to the first 13 minutes up to 'dark matter'. I'll have to come back to it. Pretty interesting.