Which is a more likely explanation for creation?

[knapplc]

What is it exactly that has you so pissed off at God? It is very apparent there is much more to it than simply making a case against his existence. You can't logically hate something that you claim doesn't exist.

 

I'm not pissed off at "god" any more than I'm pissed off at Zeus. I don't believe the god of the Bible is real.

 

I have no idea where this "hate" thing is coming from. It's misplaced.

[knapplc]

I think you misunderstand; I'm not criticizing at all. It's actually fascinating and entertaining to watch you see where conversations are going, ask certain questions, and steer it down certain paths. I don't venture into threads like this much these days, but when I do I usually see a few things you say, think, "someone's going to respond to this poorly", and then watch it play out exactly like it seems.

Maybe you perceive it that way because I know the source material so well. I spent what? 13 years in school, a few years after that in college?

 

I spent 40 years in Christian study. I know the stuff.

 

I am not steering conversations. I'm not sure how you make that observation when I'm mostly responding to people.

[JJ Husker]

 

What is it exactly that has you so pissed off at God? It is very apparent there is much more to it than simply making a case against his existence. You can't logically hate something that you claim doesn't exist.

 

I'm not pissed off at "god" any more than I'm pissed off at Zeus. I don't believe the god of the Bible is real.

 

I have no idea where this "hate" thing is coming from. It's misplaced.

I have never seen you rail on how poor of a father Zeus or Odin or Allah or any of the "others" are. You usually seem to refer to these other gods in a manner that makes it obvious that they should not be taken seriously and that they are simply imposters. But, when it comes to the God of the Bible, the Christian God, it always seems to get a bit more personal and emotion filled. I've seen it too many times to think it some kind of coincidence. At least that's the impression I have gotten. Maybe it's just that you now harbor a bit of anger for "wasting" all that time in the church and with your Bible studies. IDK.

[knapplc]

You're projecting, JJ. Not only do I not have anger for the time I spent in the church, they're some of my fondest memories.

 

You'd see me debunking the myths of the Greek gods if we had an Greek-god worshiping members here. I'm pretty well-versed in Greek mythology and could hold my own in such a conversation. There aren't any, so we don't have those conversations. It's as simple as that.

[JJ Husker]

You're projecting, JJ. Not only do I not have anger for the time I spent in the church, they're some of my fondest memories.You'd see me debunking the myths of the Greek gods if we had an Greek-god worshiping members here. I'm pretty well-versed in Greek mythology and could hold my own in such a conversation. There aren't any, so we don't have those conversations. It's as simple as that.

Fair enough. I wouldn't say I'm "projecting" but I sure may be perceiving things in your posts that aren't there. I guess in your book, that would be par for the course with me.....seeing things that don't exist. ;-)

[NUance]

Knapp, the problem with that approach is that you are allowing for there being multiple or different gods based on how people have chosen to describe him. When you approach it from there being only one true God who created everything, you can more easily see that all those different names and multiple versions are simply human beings attempts at describing the same, one thing.

But let's also not act like God never provides any proof of his existence. There's more evidence of the existence of Zeus as there is of the god of the Bible. I see lightning every Spring & Summer. That's Zeus, right there. I see the sun every day - that's Apollo. I've felt an earthquake - that's Pele. There's evidence of gods everywhere, you just believe in a different god.

You'd see me debunking the myths of the Greek gods if we had an Greek-god worshiping members here. I'm pretty well-versed in Greek mythology and could hold my own in such a conversation. There aren't any, so we don't have those conversations. It's as simple as that.

Maybe you're both wrong. Maybe there are lots of "gods". Consider the vastness of the universe. 100 billion galaxies. Each with 100 billion stars. Perhaps The God made a great number of different creatures. Many of them could be far advanced in comparison to us. (Imagine mankind in 10 million years.) If other such creatures exist they could appear god-like to us.

 

If you tried to measure mankind's capabilities on a scale of 0 to 100—with God being at 100—we would rank pretty low. Say 0.00000000001 (probably lower, actually). Well, if one of God's other creatures came along having capabilities of 0.0001, that creature would appear god-like to us.

 

I'm not saying I believe this. It's just something to consider. After all, it's a big universe that God created. There might be a lot of stuff in it.

[funhusker]

 

Sometimes we think we know exactly what a unicorn is and what a pretty unicorn looks like. Sometimes we discover we were wrong about our belief of what a unicorn should be....

 

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/03/29/giant-siberian-unicorn-existed-much-more-recently-than-previously-thought-experts-say.html

Do you honestly think this is what a Unicorn is? It's nothing like the Unicorn of the common myth.

 

Your story shows this:

 

 

We're all talking about this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you're saying "god" isn't what you think it is, and that the glorious figure of god, like the unicorn in the second image, is actually a very mundane earthly creature from a bygone age as in the first picture?

 

Because there's several problems with that, ranging from the evolving image of god to suit today's ideal, the glorious god people believe in compared to the actual shabby god there is, the fact that the god of the Bible says, "I'm the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow" meaning what we believe is god today can't be different than what god is, or that if god is different than what we believe, the fault lies somewhere with an omniscient god's lack of communication and willful allowance of such errors to be made...

 

I mean, if we're claiming that the legendary unicorn was, in fact, a rhinoceros, don't we also have to acknowledge that what ancient Israelites thought was "god" was, in fact, something else?

 

This really isn't a road we want to go down, is it?

 

Some people think that "if there is a God" why would he make us live here in this mess to "prove ourselves". They paint a picture of what they assume God 'should be' and then claim he doesn't exist because it doesn't match their own observations. When, possibly, God does exist He just doesn't match what our parents or our Church has made us believe or feel that we deserve. Yes our churches and all the major religions of the world are based on theology. These differing theologies create different images of God.

 

The original question doesn't even ask about the God of the Israelites, it just mentions "omniscient, all-powerful, God". Those of us that said yes to that option, happen to be Christian, whether that be by geography or whatever. Those of you that said no, are spending a lot of time discounting the God we believe in. My point is, you are picturing a certain God and stating why you believe that "one" can not exist.

 

One thing about this thread I know for sure, at least from what I've read, is that we all have a desire to ask questions. No one here discounts science, and everyone would be excited to hear of discoveries of our origin. We all want to be kind (well, most of us), and we all want the world to be a better place. I'm starting to look at this as fans of two teams trying to explain why there team is better the week before the game is actually played. No one knows "for sure" now, but someday we will. For now, I'm just going to enjoy the beer and wings before kickoff....

[knapplc]

Some people think that "if there is a God" why would he make us live here in this mess to "prove ourselves". They paint a picture of what they assume God 'should be' and then claim he doesn't exist because it doesn't match their own observations. When, possibly, God does exist He just doesn't match what our parents or our Church has made us believe or feel that we deserve. Yes our churches and all the major religions of the world are based on theology. These differing theologies create different images of God.

 

The original question doesn't even ask about the God of the Israelites, it just mentions "omniscient, all-powerful, God". Those of us that said yes to that option, happen to be Christian, whether that be by geography or whatever. Those of you that said no, are spending a lot of time discounting the God we believe in. My point is, you are picturing a certain God and stating why you believe that "one" can not exist.

 

One thing about this thread I know for sure, at least from what I've read, is that we all have a desire to ask questions. No one here discounts science, and everyone would be excited to hear of discoveries of our origin. We all want to be kind (well, most of us), and we all want the world to be a better place. I'm starting to look at this as fans of two teams trying to explain why there team is better the week before the game is actually played. No one knows "for sure" now, but someday we will. For now, I'm just going to enjoy the beer and wings before kickoff....

Some people think that "if there is a God" why would he make us live here in this mess to "prove ourselves". I am one of those people. If I loved my child as much as god loves me, I'd keep them in my house where they were safe and could see me every day. That's what a loving father does.

 

They paint a picture of what they assume God 'should be' and then claim he doesn't exist because it doesn't match their own observations. The image of what god is or "should be" that I use comes from the Bible, from the way god describes himself. If his own words portray an image of god that I am misunderstanding, that's on god, not me.

 

Those of us that said yes to that option, happen to be Christian, whether that be by geography or whatever. It is entirely and only because of geography. This is a key factor in why I do not believe in god.

 

Those of you that said no, are spending a lot of time discounting the God we believe in. My point is, you are picturing a certain God and stating why you believe that "one" can not exist. Those of you professing to believe in god are spending a LOT of time claiming he's real. If that stopped, there'd be far less debunking going on. All I'm doing is replying to the deists. Again, for any Christian with an issue about this discussion, this thread was started by a Christian.

 

To be very clear, I'm stating there is no evidence that *ANY* god exists. It's just that the people professing a belief here happen to all be Christian. Were there to be Gozer worshipers here, we'd be talking about how sloars aren't real. I, personally, am picturing all gods.

 

I'm starting to look at this as fans of two teams trying to explain why there team is better the week before the game is actually played. Except that one group is cheering for the Yankees and the other is cheering for the Bad News Bears. One team is real, and plays actual baseball. The other is fiction.

[BigRedBuster]

Gebbia committed to the Huskers.

 

Villanova won the championship.

 

Cubs won on opening day.

 

There is proof there is a God.

[knapplc]

Gebbia committed to the Huskers.

 

Villanova won the championship.

 

Cubs won on opening day.

 

There is proof there is a God.

 

All praise be to Zeus!

[BigRedBuster]

 

Gebbia committed to the Huskers.

 

Villanova won the championship.

 

Cubs won on opening day.

 

There is proof there is a God.

 

All praise be to Zeus!

 

Naaa...he's a Cardinals fan.

[knapplc]

 

 

Gebbia committed to the Huskers.

 

Villanova won the championship.

 

Cubs won on opening day.

 

There is proof there is a God.

 

All praise be to Zeus!

 

Naaa...he's a Cardinals fan.

 

You sure he isn't a Padres fan?

[JJ Husker]

Some people think that "if there is a God" why would he make us live here in this mess to "prove ourselves". I am one of those people. If I loved my child as much as god loves me, I'd keep them in my house where they were safe and could see me every day. That's what a loving father does.

Or at least that is your version of what a human, earthbound father should do. Probably best to not apply that standard to a supernatural eternal being.

 

They paint a picture of what they assume God 'should be' and then claim he doesn't exist because it doesn't match their own observations. The image of what god is or "should be" that I use comes from the Bible, from the way god describes himself. If his own words portray an image of god that I am misunderstanding, that's on god, not me. Your misunderstanding is on god and not you? Interesting. You told LOMS earlier "How you interpret that is on you." This standard only applies to others and not you?

 

Those of us that said yes to that option, happen to be Christian, whether that be by geography or whatever. It is entirely and only because of geography. This is a key factor in why I do not believe in god. I guess you missed the parts in the Bible and your studies about the Holy Spirit, us having souls, etc. you know, those ways that God reveals himself to us that is not dependent upon geography.

 

Those of you that said no, are spending a lot of time discounting the God we believe in. My point is, you are picturing a certain God and stating why you believe that "one" can not exist. Those of you professing to believe in god are spending a LOT of time claiming he's real. If that stopped, there'd be far less debunking going on. All I'm doing is replying to the deists. Again, for any Christian with an issue about this discussion, this thread was started by a Christian. This did not address the original bolded claim. It merely deflected and attempted to turn the issue. Maybe it's time to acknowledge that there may not be two people in the history of forever that view God in exactly the same way. What would make your specific understanding of God superior to anyone else's? Personally, I don't give much credit to the version proposed by somebody who doesn't even believe in the thing that is being discussed.

 

To be very clear, I'm stating there is no evidence that *ANY* god exists. It's just that the people professing a belief here happen to all be Christian. Were there to be Gozer worshipers here, we'd be talking about how sloars aren't real. I, personally, am picturing all gods.

To clarify, there is no evidence that YOU deem satisfactory. Others disagree with you.

 

I'm starting to look at this as fans of two teams trying to explain why there team is better the week before the game is actually played. Except that one group is cheering for the Yankees and the other is cheering for the Bad News Bears. One team is real, and plays actual baseball. The other is fiction.

In your opinion... I know the boiler plate response for somebody that would request proof that God is fiction but, you made the claim so you would have to provide proof for that. And here we find ourselves right back at the beginning, you with your beliefs and I with mine, neither one of us able to prove our beliefs suitably for the other. Did anybody expect it to end differently?

[Moesker]

 

 

In your opinion... I know the boiler plate response for somebody that would request proof that God is fiction but, you made the claim so you would have to provide proof for that. And here we find ourselves right back at the beginning, you with your beliefs and I with mine, neither one of us able to prove our beliefs suitably for the other. Did anybody expect it to end differently?

 

Is it also then the duty of a Christian to prove the thousands of other Gods in history as fiction?

 

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. 9/11 truthers don't need to be proven wrong as well...do they? A homeless man walking down the street proclaiming that he is Jesus at the top of his lungs needs a little more evidence does he not? Or does he have to be proven wrong?

[knapplc]

 

Some people think that "if there is a God" why would he make us live here in this mess to "prove ourselves". I am one of those people. If I loved my child as much as god loves me, I'd keep them in my house where they were safe and could see me every day. That's what a loving father does.

Or at least that is your version of what a human, earthbound father should do. Probably best to not apply that standard to a supernatural eternal being.

 

They paint a picture of what they assume God 'should be' and then claim he doesn't exist because it doesn't match their own observations. The image of what god is or "should be" that I use comes from the Bible, from the way god describes himself. If his own words portray an image of god that I am misunderstanding, that's on god, not me. Your misunderstanding is on god and not you? Interesting. You told LOMS earlier "How you interpret that is on you." This standard only applies to others and not you?

 

Those of us that said yes to that option, happen to be Christian, whether that be by geography or whatever. It is entirely and only because of geography. This is a key factor in why I do not believe in god. I guess you missed the parts in the Bible and your studies about the Holy Spirit, us having souls, etc. you know, those ways that God reveals himself to us that is not dependent upon geography.

 

Those of you that said no, are spending a lot of time discounting the God we believe in. My point is, you are picturing a certain God and stating why you believe that "one" can not exist. Those of you professing to believe in god are spending a LOT of time claiming he's real. If that stopped, there'd be far less debunking going on. All I'm doing is replying to the deists. Again, for any Christian with an issue about this discussion, this thread was started by a Christian. This did not address the original bolded claim. It merely deflected and attempted to turn the issue. Maybe it's time to acknowledge that there may not be two people in the history of forever that view God in exactly the same way. What would make your specific understanding of God superior to anyone else's? Personally, I don't give much credit to the version proposed by somebody who doesn't even believe in the thing that is being discussed.

 

To be very clear, I'm stating there is no evidence that *ANY* god exists. It's just that the people professing a belief here happen to all be Christian. Were there to be Gozer worshipers here, we'd be talking about how sloars aren't real. I, personally, am picturing all gods.

To clarify, there is no evidence that YOU deem satisfactory. Others disagree with you.

 

I'm starting to look at this as fans of two teams trying to explain why there team is better the week before the game is actually played. Except that one group is cheering for the Yankees and the other is cheering for the Bad News Bears. One team is real, and plays actual baseball. The other is fiction.

In your opinion... I know the boiler plate response for somebody that would request proof that God is fiction but, you made the claim so you would have to provide proof for that. And here we find ourselves right back at the beginning, you with your beliefs and I with mine, neither one of us able to prove our beliefs suitably for the other. Did anybody expect it to end differently?

 

 

Or at least that is your version of what a human, earthbound father should do. Probably best to not apply that standard to a supernatural eternal being.I don't think supernatural beings, on whom there are no limits, should choose to be a worse father than I am, or than you are. If they choose to be a worse father, they show themselves not worthy of worship.

 

Your misunderstanding is on god and not you? Interesting. You told LOMS earlier "How you interpret that is on you." This standard only applies to others and not you? Because god holds all the cards here. The god of the Bible is omnipotent, omniscient. He created all the rules. He knows before I'm ever born the exact path my life will take - if he doesn't, he's not omniscient. The problem is, I'm not misunderstanding who or what that god is supposed to be. The Bible isn't ambiguous, is it? It's pretty clear what god is, right?

 

I guess you missed the parts in the Bible and your studies about the Holy Spirit, us having souls, etc. you know, those ways that God reveals himself to us that is not dependent upon geography. Of course I didn't miss that part. It's just not true. Were it true, everyone with a soul (who is everyone in the world) would have the same access to god. But they don't. People in Saudi Arabia have access to Allah. People who lived in Norseland in Middle Ages had access to Odin. People who live in remote tribes in the Amazon to this day have access to whatever god they've invented. The Holy Spirit seems to ONLY be accessible to people who live in Christian areas. Isn't that a crazy coincidence? Or maybe it's actually factually just a story that's passed down generation to generation.

 

If it's not dependent upon geography, Native Americans would have their own worship of the Triune God pre-dating Columbus (or the Vikings). Instead, they had a pantheon of gods wholly unrelated to Christianity. Those who lived and died before the advent of Christianity, whose geography prevented them from knowing about the god of the Bible, all don't get to go to heaven, and that's straight from the Bible:

 

Romans 10:9

John 14:6

John 3:36 - where it is explicitly stated that those who do not obey the Son will not see eternal life, but the wrath of God will be upon them.

 

This is not ambiguous stuff. Those Amazon tribesmen with their pantheon of gods - all condemned to hell because they didn't win the geographic lottery and didn't know Christ.

 

The Holy Spirit is NOT an answer to that problem. Romans 3: 9-19 tells you why. NO ONE is righteous. NO ONE.

 

It is ENTIRELY dependent on geography. There is zero way around this.

 

This did not address the original bolded claim. It merely deflected and attempted to turn the issue. Maybe it's time to acknowledge that there may not be two people in the history of forever that view God in exactly the same way. What would make your specific understanding of God superior to anyone else's? Personally, I don't give much credit to the version proposed by somebody who doesn't even believe in the thing that is being discussed. I'm giving very specific answers, many supported by texts from the Bible, to speak to you in a language that you may understand. If you don't like what you're reading, fine, but don't claim that I'm not addressing the questions. The problem becomes that you've closed your mind and your only answer will ever be the god you were taught about since birth, whom you believe in because of the region in which you were born. I've been where you are.

 

To clarify, there is no evidence that YOU deem satisfactory. Others disagree with you. Of course this isn't true. I'm looking for evidence of the truth as we speak. If that truth turns out to be God, I'm totally fine with that. It's just that the evidence I've seen to date doesn't point in that direction. What's wrong with that? An appeal to the popularity of the choice doesn't help you or me in this discussion. If I were the only person in the world who thought the Christian god myth wasn't any different than the myths of other gods, who cares?

 

Isn't the real goal here knowing the truth? Is the truth less true if only one person believes it?

 

In your opinion... I know the boiler plate response for somebody that would request proof that God is fiction but, you made the claim so you would have to provide proof for that. And here we find ourselves right back at the beginning, you with your beliefs and I with mine, neither one of us able to prove our beliefs suitably for the other. Did anybody expect it to end differently? No, the claim is that God is real. THAT is the claim that has to be proven. It would be swell if I could prove to you that the Bible isn't real, but I can no more do that than prove unicorns aren't real. You know that, and you know it's a non-starter before you wrote that.