School Choice/Vouchers (split from '7 point Drain the Swamp')

[JJ Husker]

The basic problem with either model is, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Meaning; there are still and always will be students who are not going to perform well. Typically due to the lack of engagement to the education process by their parents. Anybody can look at some statistics and tell you which school is better than another. But that still does little good for the latch key parenting family that does not help their student or treat education as a priority. The worst parent could still send their kiddo to the best school and the result would still be a failing student. I've been involved in the public school system for 18 continuous years and I've seen a lot. I've seen numerous poor kids way outperform their circumstance and I've seen numerous rich kids underperform. What it comes down to in almost all cases is their parent's commitment to the process. Sure it's tougher for the disadvantaged family because they may be working shift work to make ends meet so they aren't around to make sure little Johnny does his homework. Or they may be poor or lazy or have drug problems and treat the schools as a sort of daycare that takes the responsibility off their hands for most of the day or in some cases virtually forever. The amount of kids that show up for school unprepared to learn is appalling. No breakfast, improper clothing, lack of sleep...I could go on and on. The best school in the world is not going to put a dent in many of these types of situations. But a good school and good teachers will also get through to many of these kids who have been dealt a bad situation. Too many people blame the schools, and I'm sure that is warranted in some situations. But my experience shows me that, by and large, the kid's home situation is the toughest egg to crack. I do think vouchers would help eliminate the situations where the school is not doing their job. And that just leaves the bad parent homes that no amount of tax money is going to overcome anyway.

 

Not too continue my rant too much further but, I also believe this is why schools need to focus more on trades and vocations and concentrate on preparing some of these kids, who are never going further anyway, for going directly into the workforce and providing for themselves for the rest of their lives. I believe there is too much focus on trying to get all kids college bound when it is clear many are never going to succeed on that path. Schools waste a ton of money trying to get the lowest performers up to some certain level and they tend to ignore the top performers who really have a chance at making an impact in this world. This seems to be the educational philosophy in this country. Luckily we have opted into a public high school that I feel does a very good job of maintain a challenging environment for high performers and also tries to do the best they can for low performers. My daughter is taking numerous AP classes and will soon be taking some college classes while still in high school. Yet there are gang bangers and other various problems failing the simplest remedial classes in the same school.

[zoogs]

I don't think anybody suffers delusions about their value.

 

I mean, I know adults who have pictures of themselves posing with half marathon medals. First, it's a half, and second, they did 10 minute miles, or whatever. If we want to be all "go hard" about this, we can. But I mean, it also keeps them enthused about running and that's really great. Everyone should run.

 

Some kids will throw away their participation ribbons because they were competing for more. For some kids it'll be just fine. Really don't see the problem there.

 

If we want to delve into another level, I do sort of question to what degree it's healthy that (non-elite athlete) adults are plaudit-seeking on this topic. They don't hand out medals for complaining that the younger generation is full of snowflakes, but you will get claps of approval. Just remember those too, are worthless.

 

JJ -- I didn't make it all the way through paragraph 1, but it sounds like your daughter is in a pretty nice situation and taking full advantage of it. Great for her! I wish my school had AP classes. They got there, eventually...

[JJ Husker]

Zoogs- I agree with positive affirmation. You never want to shut down an avenue that a child may later excel at. But schools today take it to the point that kids don't learn how to deal with losing or not being the best at everything. It's not really that fine of a line to encourage and affirm while at the same time teaching them how to deal with defeat and learning that some things are not worthy of being recognized as excellence. It seems currently society and our schools in particular do not have the balance right.

[zoogs]

I agree that learning to deal with adversity and defeat is important, and also that some things shouldn't be held up as *excellence*.

 

I guess...growing up, I didn't feel like this was a big issue. I don't really get the sense that this is true for younger generations, either. I suppose I'd need a better example than a ribbon for a track-and-field event I last remember existing in 2nd grade

 

But, for sure, I think the balance is hard to hew. In general I don't know that schools really have strong "life coach" elements, at least not uniformly. I think it's something most people pick up (or not) outside of the classroom. If there's something I could support it'd be things that would never pass like national service, or something like that

 

I think we do okay on balance, really...certainly my faith isn't shaken in future generations, nor mine.

[JJ Husker]

I don't think anybody suffers delusions about their value.I mean, I know adults who have pictures of themselves posing with half marathon medals. First, it's a half, and second, they did 10 minute miles, or whatever. If we want to be all "go hard" about this, we can. But I mean, it also keeps them enthused about running and that's really great. Everyone should run.Some kids will throw away their participation ribbons because they were competing for more. For some kids it'll be just fine. Really don't see the problem there.If we want to delve into another level, I do sort of question to what degree it's healthy that (non-elite athlete) adults are plaudit-seeking on this topic. They don't hand out medals for complaining that the younger generation is full of snowflakes, but you will get claps of approval. Just remember those too, are worthless.JJ -- I didn't make it all the way through paragraph 1, but it sounds like your daughter is in a pretty nice situation and taking full advantage of it. Great for her! I wish my school had AP classes. They got there, eventually...

Sorry about the length. I could go on for hours about schools and students and parents. We have been blessed with some excellent teachers and great schools. Notably, our school district is (or was recently) considered one of the lowest performing in the state. They were even put on some kind of probation and had to show X amount of improvement or funding would've been cut. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our schools or teachers. However, there is plenty wrong with a large percentage of the students and parents in our district. This is why I know that money does not solve school and education issues. I've seen ungodly amounts of money shifted towards getting the low performers up to standards with little positive result.

[teachercd]

The basic problem with either model is, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Meaning; there are still and always will be students who are not going to perform well. Typically due to the lack of engagement to the education process by their parents. Anybody can look at some statistics and tell you which school is better than another. But that still does little good for the latch key parenting family that does not help their student or treat education as a priority. The worst parent could still send their kiddo to the best school and the result would still be a failing student. I've been involved in the public school system for 18 continuous years and I've seen a lot. I've seen numerous poor kids way outperform their circumstance and I've seen numerous rich kids underperform. What it comes down to in almost all cases is their parent's commitment to the process. Sure it's tougher for the disadvantaged family because they may be working shift work to make ends meet so they aren't around to make sure little Johnny does his homework. Or they may be poor or lazy or have drug problems and treat the schools as a sort of daycare that takes the responsibility off their hands for most of the day or in some cases virtually forever. The amount of kids that show up for school unprepared to learn is appalling. No breakfast, improper clothing, lack of sleep...I could go on and on. The best school in the world is not going to put a dent in many of these types of situations. But a good school and good teachers will also get through to many of these kids who have been dealt a bad situation. Too many people blame the schools, and I'm sure that is warranted in some situations. But my experience shows me that, by and large, the kid's home situation is the toughest egg to crack. I do think vouchers would help eliminate the situations where the school is not doing their job. And that just leaves the bad parent homes that no amount of tax money is going to overcome anyway.

 

Not too continue my rant too much further but, I also believe this is why schools need to focus more on trades and vocations and concentrate on preparing some of these kids, who are never going further anyway, for going directly into the workforce and providing for themselves for the rest of their lives. I believe there is too much focus on trying to get all kids college bound when it is clear many are never going to succeed on that path. Schools waste a ton of money trying to get the lowest performers up to some certain level and they tend to ignore the top performers who really have a chance at making an impact in this world. This seems to be the educational philosophy in this country. Luckily we have opted into a public high school that I feel does a very good job of maintain a challenging environment for high performers and also tries to do the best they can for low performers. My daughter is taking numerous AP classes and will soon be taking some college classes while still in high school. Yet there are gang bangers and other various problems failing the simplest remedial classes in the same school.

Your last paragraph nails it. I agree 100%. Trade schools should start much sooner than after high school.

 

A kid that feels like "school sucks" and is "dumb" might not feel that way if their "school" was an apprenticeship as a welder, learning a trade and making 15-20 dollars an hour as a 15 year old with a pretty clear path. Mix that in with basic math, consumer math, reading and writing, how to purchase a home, small business ownership/start-ups, computer skills, stocks/bonds/banking information and BAM...things are really good.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

School choice analysis is uber simple.

 

Is goverment schooling performing well...results and cost? No. No. Can you please explain what analysis you are using to come to this conclusion?

 

 

[Sargon]

 

Low IQ kids are not EVER going to be rocket surgeons you do know this right? Potential rocket surgeon kids (IQ 125+) SHOULD do MOST of their schooling with other high IQ kids studying at a pace that lower IQ kids can NOT handle. AP classes. AP schools. Socialist Germany even knows this.

What are low IQ kids? How is this decided? What happens to the low IQ kids?

 

I was taught that hard work trumps all, and that potential is fostered, not innate. This line of thinking smacks of government policy that deprives us of individual agency -- it doesn't sound very conservative.

 

Also, rockets, being inert, do not require surgeons.

 

 

Rockets aren't inert.

 

Potential is innate the result is something less than potential, always. DNA determines cognitive, height, and ALL potentials. Then behavior and environment are added. These factors can allow for maximum potential or not. They never push one above max pot'l so low cognitive DNA cannot ever produce top functioning STEM professionals. Severe malnutrition results in people who are dumber and shorter, etc, than they could have been.

 

"What are low IQ kids? How is this decided? "

Don't you know? Tell me. You think you're smarter me on this topic. Tell me. How is IQ measured well? What is a low iq?

 

"What happens to the low IQ kids?"

This is a stupid question as my answer has already been made clear. So, you're being argumentative or not paying attention. Hallmark D behavior during "conversation."

 

"i was taught" you said. Not sure if true or a manner of speaking. But I guess you were indeed taught that. All D teachers teach D dogma and you had some leftist teachers for sure.

 

What policy? I advocate NO government policy. Democrats and you are the ones who argue for and force on us government POLICY, government schools we don't use and don't like and our tax money pays for it against our will. There are no end of Dem leader douches to be sure, but offhand I can't think of anyone that I would like to give tax money to LESS...than idiot lying jack****s such as D Rahm Emanuel or D idiot lying jack**s Bill de Blahblahblah and these two lying democrat jack***s have the 2 largest confiscation piles from the ruled class in the Nation (guessing maybe whatever lying idiot who runs LA is number 2).

 

Everyone gets it that DNA locks in max height individually. Everyone gets that Bolt's fast 100 times are largely genetic. But most western leftists believe at the same time that genetics means nothing to cognitive potential. Suspension of disbelief is powerful. Propaganda (in schools, "news") is powerful. It takes a village...that is propaganda and it is FALSE. It's the number one reason why us school choice voters don't want to support government schools. We also don't want to support lefty NPR/PBS. Or lefty anything, that our tax money is used on.

[Sargon]

 

 

 

School choice analysis is uber simple.

 

Is goverment schooling performing well...results and cost? No. No. Can you please explain what analysis you are using to come to this conclusion?

 

 

 

 

Learn how to use google.

[TGHusker]

Looks like we can have a whole new thread just on the school issue alone. Good discussion. If the mods want, maybe they can move that to a specific thread of its own!!

I want to get back to the OP - which items would you grade to be the highest priority and 2ndly which ones do you think will actually get accomplished?

[zoogs]

Wow, what a meltdown. Maybe I'll do a thread pruning, TG

 

I don't happen to know my IQ or the IQ of any of my friends. They're sharp people, but mostly they're driven and worked hard to get to where they are, with the help of the resources available to them. Would that more people had the chance to have the same. How is IQ measured? Are you a STEM professional?

 

If vouchers isn't government policy (funded by taxation, also government policy), what is it?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

School choice analysis is uber simple.

 

Is goverment schooling performing well...results and cost? No. No. Can you please explain what analysis you are using to come to this conclusion?

 

 

 

 

Learn how to use google.

 

I know how to use Google very well.....thank you! So you can't come up with a good discussion point. You are just going to make claims without something to back them up?

 

Is this something you just read a few articles about? Or is there some analytical analysis that you are using to come to this conclusion?

 

There is a very large range of ways people have measured the effectiveness of our school systems.

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[Sargon]

Then prove you know how to use google. This is not hard to figure out pretty surprised you don't know it it's been true for a couple decades.

[BigRedBuster]

Then prove you know how to use google. This is not hard to figure out pretty surprised you don't know it it's been true for a couple decades.

So...still nothing to back up your stance.

 

You're quite the conversationalist on the topic.

[knapplc]

I would hope the behavior, tone & tenor of everyone in this thread is being examined, and that nobody is being given a pass on behavior standards because they are engaging in conversation directly with a Mod.

 

Let us be reasonable, but not so reasonable that we turn a blind eye to egregious behavior.