Defensive Play Discussion

[Mavric]

Our safeties are making a lot of plays around the LOS this year.

 

 

[Mavric]

Great play by CTB.  And the DL was stout.

 

 

[GSG]

23 minutes ago, Mavric said:

Great play by CTB.  And the DL was stout.

 

 

 

Nelson in there eating up blocks 

[Undone]

This game has started to sway my opinions on Garrett Nelson's potential. He's got a lot of strength for the weight he's at now and really was pretty much as effective as a standard-sized defensive end in this game.

 

Guesses as to whether they'll have him put on even more weight after this season or just stay where he's at?

[ColoradoHusk]

16 minutes ago, Undone said:

This game has started to sway my opinions on Garrett Nelson's potential. He's got a lot of strength for the weight he's at now and really was pretty much as effective as a standard-sized defensive end in this game.

 

Guesses as to whether they'll have him put on even more weight after this season or just stay where he's at?

I've also been down on Nelson quite a bit this year, but the past 2 games he has done very well eating up blockers and holding the edge against the run.  That's where he excels.  I can see him putting on a little more weight/strength, but the concern is if it will hinder his speed on the pass rush.

 

EDIT:  Nelson's biggest issues are when he is asked to be in pass coverage (which I realize isn't often) or playing the zone read (where he seems to try both the RB and the QB), but he's in his first year as a started and is progressing.  Hopefully he will improve in these areas with more experience.

[Undone]

5 minutes ago, ColoradoHusk said:

EDIT:  Nelson's biggest issues are when he is asked to be in pass coverage (which I realize isn't often) or playing the zone read (where he seems to try both the RB and the QB), but he's in his first year as a started and is progressing.  Hopefully he will improve in these areas with more experience.

 

Yeah, this goes back to the topic we've discussed on this board a million times which is that Chinander wants to have these "two-for" guys that can in theory do all of the things a normal outside backer can do but then at the same time do all of the things a regular defensive end can do.

 

In my opinion only guys on the talent level/freakish body type of your Randy Gregory's can do that...and how many of those are there?

 

So you're right, 'Husk - if he can't do pass coverage well, then what's the point?

[Guy Chamberlin]

They must really think they’ll miss Bateman. Tanner Morgan is a shell without all those dudes he had before. Put Cam on Autman-Bell. Stack the box for Ibrahim. 

[ColoradoHusk]

2 minutes ago, Undone said:

 

Yeah, this goes back to the topic we've discussed on this board a million times which is that Chinander wants to have these "two-for" guys that can in theory do all of the things a normal outside backer can do but then at the same time do all of the things a regular defensive end can do.

 

In my opinion only guys on the talent level/freakish body type of your Randy Gregory's can do that...and how many of those are there?

 

So you're right, 'Husk - if he can't do pass coverage well, then what's the point?

 

I think Nelson can be adequate in pass coverage if he just understands his responsibilities in coverage and uses his length to take up space.  He may be in coverage only a handful of times a game, but he can't be a complete liability out there.  That really goes to Nelson understanding that his role in the defense is to be part of the bigger group, and not having to make every play (which he probably had to/was able to do in high school).

[Undone]

@ColoradoHusk - I've been more worried about him being quick enough to handle pass coverage. But I'm hoping the guy can really make it happen because it's awesome seeing a Nebraksa kid out there having success!

[ColoradoHusk]

6 minutes ago, Undone said:

@ColoradoHusk - I've been more worried about him being quick enough to handle pass coverage. But I'm hoping the guy can really make it happen because it's awesome seeing a Nebraksa kid out there having success!

I get that, but I honestly think he's "playing slow" by getting stuck in between decisions.  That OLB is rarely going to be asked to cover RB's or WR's down the field.  That OLB is mainly just going to be taking up space in the zone, and covering TE's, as needed.  One example of this is the play action pass where the QB will fake the handoff, and then bootleg back to the strong side (towards Nelson).  Big Ten teams run this a lot, with the tight end being the simple pass in the flat.  The QB will usually put the defender in a predicament because the DE/OLB usually is stuck between staying on the TE or going after the QB on the bootleg.  There are 2 examples of this play which come to my mind this year.

 

First, against Northwestern, they ran this play in the 2nd quarter, and Nich Henrich was in at OLB (subbing for Nelson).  Henrich read the play, stayed with the TE to take away that simple pass, and the ILB (I think it was Miller) attacked the QB to force an incomplete pass.  IMO, Henrich was the key to that play because he stayed on the TE and took away that easy pass.

 

Second, against Iowa, late in the game when they were trying to milk the clock away, Iowa was faced with a 2nd and 10, after NU made a good stop on first down.  Iowa ran this play right at Nelson, and Nelson got himself in no-mans land.  IMO, he should have stayed with the TE, because the DE was coming from the inside to put pressure on Iowa's QB.  Instead, after a pause, Nelson rushed the QB and there was a simple pass to the TE for a first down.

 

I realize this is a tough play for the OLB, but this is an example of 2 guys with similar builds and experience, where one guy (Henrich) made a quick decision and it led to an incomplete pass, and one guy (Nelson) hesitated and it led to a first down for the Iowa.

[Mavric]

50 minutes ago, Undone said:

 

Yeah, this goes back to the topic we've discussed on this board a million times which is that Chinander wants to have these "two-for" guys that can in theory do all of the things a normal outside backer can do but then at the same time do all of the things a regular defensive end can do.

 

In my opinion only guys on the talent level/freakish body type of your Randy Gregory's can do that...and how many of those are there?

 

So you're right, 'Husk - if he can't do pass coverage well, then what's the point?

 

I'm not sure that's really accurate.  The weakside OLB (Domann) is primarily in pass coverage while the strongside OLB (Nelson, Payne, etc.) are basically stand-up DEs.  Do they end up in coverage occasionally? Yes.  But only when they have to.  They aren't designed to really have to be a "two-for" but when they have to they do.

 

Nelson has only been in coverage for 33 snaps out of 317 for the year per Pro Football Focus.  So basically 90% of the time he's a DE.  Payne has been in coverage 6 out of 103 snaps.  

 

So like nearly everyone who isn't a DT they have to be do more than one thing occasionally.  But the way the defense is designed is for them to mainly rush the passer and stop the run.

[Undone]

That post is a +1 for sure, @ColoradoHusk. Good stuff!

 

So great points about what we might consider "awareness." Gotta have that in spades to be a good linebacker.

 

I will say that there's probably a difference in builds between Nelson & Henrich; Nelson probably isn't as fast as Henrich, and Henrich probably isn't as strong as Nelson. Still, as you say - Nelson can still make some of those coverage plays if his awareness continues to improve.

 

[Undone]

@Mavric - Those stats are amazing, btw, and I didn't know that site existed! Thanks for providing those.

 

My question then is basically why don't we have Nelson put on roughly another 10 pounds of mass and then just call him what he'd be - a more traditional-sized defensive end?

 

To be clear, I'd be all for that. So then it's more like a "4-3" where instead of having an undersized Caleb Tannor or Nick Henrich going up against an offensive tackle, you have a bigger, stronger guy (Nelson) who can physically match up better.

[GSG]

Maybe instead of worrying about covering tight ends we should just use a little Alvin Mack tactics

 

[Mavric]

37 minutes ago, Undone said:

@Mavric - Those stats are amazing, btw, and I didn't know that site existed! Thanks for providing those.

 

My question then is basically why don't we have Nelson put on roughly another 10 pounds of mass and then just call him what he'd be - a more traditional-sized defensive end?

 

To be clear, I'd be all for that. So then it's more like a "4-3" where instead of having an undersized Caleb Tannor or Nick Henrich going up against an offensive tackle, you have a bigger, stronger guy (Nelson) who can physically match up better.

 

I'm pretty sure that's basically what they're doing.  Nelson didn't play as much against teams that run more spread sets (Ohio State, Northwestern, Illinois) but played more against more power teams (Penn State & Iowa).  Tannor didn't play as much against Iowa but played more against Ohio State and Northwestern.