The Religious Discussion of 2012

[Ratt Mhule]

Artificial turf for what?

Playing fields.

 

That expansion is to better the school, not the church. I have no problem with that.

 

Westside High School put artificial turf on their football field and baseball field a few years back. Are you upset about that?

[HSKR]

Artificial turf for what?

Playing fields.

 

That expansion is to better the school, not the church. I have no problem with that.

 

Westside High School put artificial turf on their football field and baseball field a few years back. Are you upset about that?

 

I was going to ask if there was a school involved. Your answer makes more sense if that is the case. It does bring up another point of how hypocritical it seems for people who don't even attend these churches to be critical of their spending yet at the same time have no problem with how other facets of our society blow money for no reason. If they really care about the starving of the world, then I sure as hell hope they don't blow hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year going to college football games when you could feed lots of bowls of rice to the starving with that money.

[HSKR]

First off, I am by no means Catholic or agree with a lot of their theology. There is no doubt they have vast amounts of wealth but when I look at the Catholic Church what hits me first and foremost on the money issue is the people that actually reside in in the Church by no means live as if they are wealthy. The next time I see a local priest or nun drivng a big fancy SUV or BMW will be the first. Do those higher up live it up? I guess I don't know that answer because I don't see it. Maybe someone here more familiar could tell me that.

 

As far as megachurches go, yea they can get huge. Some look like small college campuses but you also need to realize the number of people attending these churches, many in the thousands. If you were to divide those people up, put them in smaller more typical churches that we are accustomed to in the past, I can almost guarantee you that building 30 separate smaller churches would actually cost more per member then having these single megachurches, yet nobody would have a problem with that. Why is that?. What's wrong with having a gym in a church when you could have hundreds of kids using them for church functions or a wedding reception? I guess it's time to take gyms out of regular schools as well.

 

What I do have an issue with concerning megachurches is when you see a preacher living way beyond what he needs to be. I'm not against a church giving him a good salary to live comfortably, but when they are living in million dollar houses, multiple fancy cars, etc, that just not right. Most of them are not like this and many times the ones that do, seem to be the same churches that end up in some kind of financial crises and tanking after some moral disaster within the church.

[HuskerShark]

First off, I am by no means Catholic or agree with a lot of their theology. There is no doubt they have vast amounts of wealth but when I look at the Catholic Church what hits me first and foremost on the money issue is the people that actually reside in in the Church by no means live as if they are wealthy. The next time I see a local priest or nun drivng a big fancy SUV or BMW will be the first. Do those higher up live it up? I guess I don't know that answer because I don't see it. Maybe someone here more familiar could tell me that.

 

As far as megachurches go, yea they can get huge. Some look like small college campuses but you also need to realize the number of people attending these churches, many in the thousands. If you were to divide those people up, put them in smaller more typical churches that we are accustomed to in the past, I can almost guarantee you that building 30 separate smaller churches would actually cost more per member then having these single megachurches, yet nobody would have a problem with that. Why is that?. What's wrong with having a gym in a church when you could have hundreds of kids using them for church functions or a wedding reception? I guess it's time to take gyms out of regular schools as well.

 

What I do have an issue with concerning megachurches is when you see a preacher living way beyond what he needs to be. I'm not against a church giving him a good salary to live comfortably, but when they are living in million dollar houses, multiple fancy cars, etc, that just not right. Most of them are not like this and many times the ones that do, seem to be the same churches that end up in some kind of financial crises and tanking after some moral disaster within the church.

 

My girlfriend's church near St Louis has a couple thousand person congregation and it isn't huge or fancy at all. It's basically a gym floor that they put a stage on and a bunch of seats for people to sit in/stand by. They also have 3 services on Sunday morning and one on Saturdays.

 

And it's contemporary, so it's amazing! Not opulent by any means, just a great atmosphere.

 

Note: it is a Lutheran church

[carlfense]

That expansion is to better the school, not the church.

Not quite true. SDvP specifically says that they will be used for church adults as well as students.

 

My problem (as you put it) is that the Church itself is lobbying for millions of dollars of donations to build unnecessarily ritzy facilities. I think that using that money for outreach, feeding the hungry, helping the poor, etc. would be far more in line with the teachings of Jesus. Somehow, I struggled through public school with natural grass playing feels (ugh. gross.) and not million dollar astroturf.

 

If you believe that spending millions on statuary, wood carvings, and astroturf is the best and most Christian use of those donations . . . well . . . that's fine. I think that's a tough argument to make but you're welcome to try.

[carlfense]

My girlfriend's church near St Louis has a couple thousand person congregation and it isn't huge or fancy at all. It's basically a gym floor that they put a stage on and a bunch of seats for people to sit in/stand by. They also have 3 services on Sunday morning and one on Saturdays.

 

And it's contemporary, so it's amazing! Not opulent by any means, just a great atmosphere.

 

Note: it is a Lutheran church

I have much more respect for that type of church. I have many friends in an E Free congregation that meet in what is basically a shed. Every spare cent goes to outreach, community improvement, mission trips, soup kitchens, etc.

 

THAT is the type of Christianity that impresses me. NOT a room filled with ancient artwork and gilded vases.

 

In my years of heavy involvement with the church I think I can safely say that Jesus himself would be happier with the former than the latter.

[carlfense]

It does bring up another point of how hypocritical it seems for people who don't even attend these churches to be critical of their spending yet at the same time have no problem with how other facets of our society blow money for no reason.

 

Is it unfair to expect self-proclaimed Christians to attempt to live up to a Christian standard? That seems appropriate and fair to me. As noted in my previous post, I think it's easy to see what Jesus himself would expect. I think he might be a tad bit disappointed about his devoted followers raising millions in his name NOT to help the downtrodden but to provide luxurious athletic facilities for congregation members.

 

Maybe I should spend less time thinking about what the bible actually says and instead focus on what the church leaders say. I don't know.

[Ratt Mhule]

That expansion is to better the school, not the church.

Not quite true. SDvP specifically says that they will be used for church adults as well as students.

 

My problem (as you put it) is that the Church itself is lobbying for millions of dollars of donations to build unnecessarily ritzy facilities. I think that using that money for outreach, feeding the hungry, helping the poor, etc. would be far more in line with the teachings of Jesus. Somehow, I struggled through public school with natural grass playing feels (ugh. gross.) and not million dollar astroturf.

 

If you believe that spending millions on statuary, wood carvings, and astroturf is the best and most Christian use of those donations . . . well . . . that's fine. I think that's a tough argument to make but you're welcome to try.

 

First of all, I already said, things don't need to be gold platted, but if they are falling apart, they need to be replaced. And what are the church adults going to use the astroturf playing field for? Their yearly slow pitch softball tournament? Im sure what they meant by that was it is open for the public if anyone wants to come practice their sport on. If I lived in that neighborhood, Cathloic or not, Id take my son to the field to throw the ball around, especially if it rained the day before and every other field is full of mud. They did it for a reason, find out the reason before you criticize.

 

And secondly, you act like the church does nothing to help people other than their own parishoners. I don't go to SvDP, but I do go to St. Wenceslaus and they do things all the time to help less fortunate. Not only in the community and with parishoners, but school food drives and such to get students involved. Stop acting like the churches do nothing to help other people.

 

And you never answered my question, are you upset that WHS and other high schools are spending millions of dollars on astroturf playing fields? Afterall, they could have used that money for other things. Like for new books or other things that could help students improve their learning. Or is it just the Catholic schools spending millions of dollars for their students that upset you?

[carlfense]

And you never answered my question, are you upset that WHS and other high schools are spending millions of dollars on astroturf playing fields? Afterall, they could have used that money for other things. Like for new books or other things that could help students improve their learning. Or is it just the Catholic schools spending millions of dollars for their students that upset you?

Are those other schools raising money at worship services in the name of Christianity? Just curious about that part I guess. It seems like that's a quite relevant little detail that you're conveniently omitting. If you're truly wondering, yes. I am upset when high schools build ridiculous athletic facilities while academic spending stagnates.

 

My turn. Where is the limit for you? Is there some point where you would say "OK. They should have spent that money in a more Christian fashion"? Or do you blindly defer to church authority? Does a 10 million dollar church with 80 foot ceilings and imported exposed wooden beams and gold inlaid floor tiles allow you to worship Christ more effectively?

 

(This is the type of thing that I'm talking about: http://abcnews.go.co...84#.T1-5bWLP2RM )

[Ratt Mhule]

And you never answered my question, are you upset that WHS and other high schools are spending millions of dollars on astroturf playing fields? Afterall, they could have used that money for other things. Like for new books or other things that could help students improve their learning. Or is it just the Catholic schools spending millions of dollars for their students that upset you?

Are those other schools raising money at worship services in the name of Christianity? Just curious about that little part I guess. It seems like that's a quite relevant little detail that you're conveniently omitting. If you're truly wondering, yes. I am upset when high schools build ridiculous athletic facilities while academic spending stagnates.

 

My turn. Where is the limit for you? Is there some point where you would say "OK. They should have spent that money in a more Christian fashion"? Or do you blindly defer to church authority? Does a 10 million dollar church with 80 foot ceilings and imported exposed wooden beams and gold inlaid floor tiles allow you to worship Christ more effectively?

 

I have said that when they spend the money on the church on unnecessary things. My point is there is a difference when they are spending the money on the actual school, not the church. And like I said, St. Wenceslaus does spend a lot of money in a Christian fashion. They just did a drive not to long ago to raise money for children in Africa. I have no idea what SvDp does, but Im sure they just don't spend all the money for themselves. And no, I don't need that to pray to God, I don't need a church for that at all as a matter of fact.

[carlfense]

And no, I don't need that to pray to God, I don't need a church for that at all as a matter of fact.

OK. So wouldn't it be more in line with the teachings of Jesus to worship in a relatively humble church and use any excess funds to help people? Isn't that more Christian than building a huge ostentatious church for your own use?

 

From what I remember of my bible studies the former is more Christian.

[Ratt Mhule]

And no, I don't need that to pray to God, I don't need a church for that at all as a matter of fact.

OK. So wouldn't it be more in line with the teachings of Jesus to worship in a relatively humble church and use any excess funds to help people? Isn't that more Christian than building a huge ostentatious church for your own use?

 

From what I remember of my bible studies the former is more Christian.

 

I'll admit, they do have unnecessary things in the church. I never said they didn't. That's why I don't give them money unless it is something they actually need. Like the new air conditioning system I talked about earlier. Or they are raising money for a good cause. I don't rely on the church for my donations, however. I do my own donating or community service.

[JJ Husker]

And while we're on the subject of the Catholic church hording wealth that could be put to better use feeding and housing the poor, can someone name some organizations that do more in that regard than the Catholic church?

Would that be the 62% of funding that is provided to Catholic charities by the government? Like The Dude said . . . the US government does far more of that the Catholic Church.

 

I did not realize the government provided that much funding to Catholic charities but, you are correct. So possibly we cannot credit Catholic charities for 62% of what they do but this brings up an interesting question; Why does our government give them so much funding? Is it possible they are doing an outstanding job of distributing that funding to where it is needed. This link is a rather old story and from a different perspective but it would appear that CC is basically operating as another arm of our welfare system. You seem to be pleased with any money our governement spends in this regard and skeptical of any good CC does on their own so this should make you happy. Either way it would appear that my original comments of CC providing a lot of help to poor people and the like were well founded.

http://www.city-jour..._charities.html

 

Seems a little counterproductive to me to hold the Catholic churches feet to the fire for something they do a much better job of than most.

Can you back that up?

 

No, that is just my impression. Can you dispell it?

 

Look at what they do on the local level rather than just focusing on some of the excesses of Vatican City and you will see a different picture.

I was specifically talking about the local level both in the previous thread and in this one. For example, the new Catholic church in Fremont, NE and additions toSVdP at 144th and Maple in Omaha.

 

How dare those church going people decide they want a nice new church. I mean who do they think they are deciding how to spend their own money? Everyone knows the US federal government is the only organization capable of deciding how our money should be spent. They have such an illustrious track record of how to spend wisely and within their means. Churches and the people within them should wear rags and live and worship in cardboard boxes maybe even lick gravel off the road for sustenance. Maybe instead of donating to churches we could all send more money to Washington so they can build more monuments, display more artwork, get a more high tech Airforce One plane, employ thousands more extremely helpful beaurocrats, and blow up a few more countries.

 

You're sure free to feel that Christian organizations cannot have nice things but it is ok for anyone else to have them as long as they don't claim any Christian principles. I don't get it though. I understand there are some excesses that are an easy target when you look at the basic message Jesus taught but realistically in this day and age some things have to be nice to keep the membership up. When dealing with human beings somtimes things get a little backwards but I don't think you can discount all the good they do on the basis that they could do more if....

 

Edit- I suck at this multiquote thing. My embedded comments are now italicized.

[carlfense]

Traditionally, the person making an assertion proves it up.

 

You can assume whatever you'd like about my beliefs about our welfare system.

 

It's quite an indictment of your religion if Christianity has to rely on bells and whistles to attract converts.

[HSKR]

It does bring up another point of how hypocritical it seems for people who don't even attend these churches to be critical of their spending yet at the same time have no problem with how other facets of our society blow money for no reason.

 

Is it unfair to expect self-proclaimed Christians to attempt to live up to a Christian standard? That seems appropriate and fair to me. As noted in my previous post, I think it's easy to see what Jesus himself would expect. I think he might be a tad bit disappointed about his devoted followers raising millions in his name NOT to help the downtrodden but to provide luxurious athletic facilities for congregation members.

 

Maybe I should spend less time thinking about what the bible actually says and instead focus on what the church leaders say. I don't know.

 

If by Christian standard you mean the way Christ himself lived then yes it would be quite unfair. No doubt, all Christians could do better in the way they live their lives and be better examples to those who aren't Christians themselves, but in the end it only matters to Christ himself if they have or not. As for what the rest of the world says, it really doesn't matter, especially when pot is calling kettle black.