The Religious Discussion of 2012

[huskerjack23]

Who are we (concerned society) to tell others what they can or can't do? We're the same society that is concerned and has laws against gunning somebody down on the street. We don't need to know what that murderers circumstances are to know that it is wrong to end a life. The only difference I can see is location. The unborn baby is in anothers womb instead of in a dark alley. I think it is giving the mother too much leeway to allow her to kill for whatever reason she deems appropriate. Her decision is a lot more critical for someone other than her. This debate isn't even fair. The only ones discussing it were simply lucky enough to have not been aborted. I wonder what all those aborted babies would have to say about it. I'm guessing there not overly concerned with the circumstances that determined their death. I bet every one of them would have rather had a fighting chance at life.

I wonder what the misscarried fetuses would say to god why they never had a shot at life?

[knapplc]

I wonder what the misscarried fetuses would say to god why they never had a shot at life?

 

After looking at the miasma of pain, suffering, heartache and depression that dominates the lives of the vast majority of humans, throughout existence, maybe they'd say, "Thanks."

[huskerjack23]

You could say that about women who've had abortions.

[JJ Husker]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

[Enhance]

I agree that the problem is deciding when and where to draw the line. Many like to argue that the clean line is at birth but that really hasn't ever made sense to me as it is perfectly obvious that it would be able to survive without the mother earlier than that. For example, in the case of twins, the one delivered first would instantly become a life while the other still wouldn't be for another couple minutes? I don't know how that makes any sense.

 

I would also be on the side of drawing the line earlier rather than later. It would seem to me that somewhere around viability wouldn't be a bad compromise. I believe that about 24 weeks is generally considered the minimum for a decent chance of survival. Obviously there are a lot of variables not the least of which is counting that 24 weeks or whatever number you want to put on it. But, in my opinion, even though birth looks to some to be a clean line to draw, it really isn't any less arbitrary that other lines that could be drawn earlier than that.

Many pro-choice people draw the line at consciousness. IIRC, the biological occurrences allowing for conscience to form takes place sometime around the 24th or 28th week of gestation. Until this point, the fetus is merely a cell combination. It is "life", but it's life incapable of conscience until after the first trimester.

 

I think abortion is wrong. But, it's very difficult for me to tell someone they don't have the right to make the choice early on.

[The Dude]

Regarding abortion, opponents need to find secular reasoning behind outlawing the procedure.

 

If god thinks its a life that shouldn't be ended, then why SIDS and miscarriages?

Welp, God works in mysterious ways.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

 

What an ego it takes to think you can decide what is right for other people while having no prior knowledge of the position they are in.

 

I agree with you view on abortion, I really don't think it should be done. I think it's inhumane and immoral, but I'm not the person making the decision--I have no knowledge of the forces driving that decision. So who am I, or who are we as people to understand and decide what is right for people in situations to which we are not privy of--that we can have no idea of understanding? My religious views have no pull in how I view abortion. You're no more or less a person to me if you get an abortion early on in the process, I can't possibly understand why you did it, and I can't say if put under the same circumstances that I would make a different choice.

 

The self-righteousness a lot of pro-life people show is indescribable--I really can't put a word to how it makes me feel.

[JJ Husker]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

 

What an ego it takes to think you can decide what is right for other people while having no prior knowledge of the position they are in.

 

I agree with you view on abortion, I really don't think it should be done. I think it's inhumane and immoral, but I'm not the person making the decision--I have no knowledge of the forces driving that decision. So who am I, or who are we as people to understand and decide what is right for people in situations to which we are not privy of--that we can have no idea of understanding? My religious views have no pull in how I view abortion. You're no more or less a person to me if you get an abortion early on in the process, I can't possibly understand why you did it, and I can't say if put under the same circumstances that I would make a different choice.

 

The self-righteousness a lot of pro-life people show is indescribable--I really can't put a word to how it makes me feel.

I'm not going to tell other people what is right for them but I do think it is societies duty to set some reasonable boundaries for what is legal. You can call me self righteous if you want but I still feel it is the equivelant of murder to abort a baby for no better reason than what a person may perceive to be a financial burden or as the remedy for a lack of personal responsibility. If you think I am opposed to abortion in all cases, you are wrong. I think in cases of rape, incest, or when the mothers life is endangered that it should be acceptable for that mother to make the decision to correct a wrong. I doubt the decision to abort is arrived at lightly by many and I am in no position to judge a person who makes that decision but, simply because giving birth might be an inconvience in their life is not a good enough reason for me to kill another life and I don't think it should be a good enough reason to allow it to happen. If we operated that way in all matters, there would be a whole bunch of dead people because they made somebody's life inconvenient. Most bosses, annoying neighbors, etc. would be toast. My personal feelings on the matter have virtually nothing to do with my church or religion. I don't like telling people what they can or can't do in personal matters but abortion is different because anothers life is on the line. Society pretty much agrees that murder is wrong, I fail to see how many instances of abortion are any different. I agree the fanatical arm of the pro-lifers make me cringe but so do the "it's my body, my decision, none of your business" pro-choice fanatics that want no limits on when they can murder. If I have to error, I would prefer it be on the side of giving someone a chance at life rather than letting them get snuffed out simply because mommy didn't bother to take the necessary precautions. Often times mommy had a chance to prevent the perceived need of an abortion. An aborted baby never has that chance. If we never find that middle ground (which I doubt we will) of when it should be allowed and when not, this debate will occur forever. The extremists on both sides are what is preventing reaching that compromise.

[Mavric]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

 

What an ego it takes to think you can decide what is right for other people while having no prior knowledge of the position they are in.

 

I agree with you view on abortion, I really don't think it should be done. I think it's inhumane and immoral, but I'm not the person making the decision--I have no knowledge of the forces driving that decision. So who am I, or who are we as people to understand and decide what is right for people in situations to which we are not privy of--that we can have no idea of understanding? My religious views have no pull in how I view abortion. You're no more or less a person to me if you get an abortion early on in the process, I can't possibly understand why you did it, and I can't say if put under the same circumstances that I would make a different choice.

 

The self-righteousness a lot of pro-life people show is indescribable--I really can't put a word to how it makes me feel.

Not a direct quote from you but you were along the same lines: Usually the phrase "legislating morality" comes up in this debate. The discussion over abortion is basically the only place I ever hear this phrase used. It always strikes me as odd. Isn't basically every law there is "legislating morality." You can argue with the semantics but basically that was all laws are: a society (generally) agreeing on what is right and what is wrong.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

 

What an ego it takes to think you can decide what is right for other people while having no prior knowledge of the position they are in.

 

I agree with you view on abortion, I really don't think it should be done. I think it's inhumane and immoral, but I'm not the person making the decision--I have no knowledge of the forces driving that decision. So who am I, or who are we as people to understand and decide what is right for people in situations to which we are not privy of--that we can have no idea of understanding? My religious views have no pull in how I view abortion. You're no more or less a person to me if you get an abortion early on in the process, I can't possibly understand why you did it, and I can't say if put under the same circumstances that I would make a different choice.

 

The self-righteousness a lot of pro-life people show is indescribable--I really can't put a word to how it makes me feel.

I'm not going to tell other people what is right for them but I do think it is societies duty to set some reasonable boundaries for what is legal. You can call me self righteous if you want but I still feel it is the equivelant of murder to abort a baby for no better reason than what a person may perceive to be a financial burden or as the remedy for a lack of personal responsibility. If you think I am opposed to abortion in all cases, you are wrong. I think in cases of rape, incest, or when the mothers life is endangered that it should be acceptable for that mother to make the decision to correct a wrong. I doubt the decision to abort is arrived at lightly by many and I am in no position to judge a person who makes that decision but, simply because giving birth might be an inconvience in their life is not a good enough reason for me to kill another life and I don't think it should be a good enough reason to allow it to happen. If we operated that way in all matters, there would be a whole bunch of dead people because they made somebody's life inconvenient. Most bosses, annoying neighbors, etc. would be toast. My personal feelings on the matter have virtually nothing to do with my church or religion. I don't like telling people what they can or can't do in personal matters but abortion is different because anothers life is on the line. Society pretty much agrees that murder is wrong, I fail to see how many instances of abortion are any different. I agree the fanatical arm of the pro-lifers make me cringe but so do the "it's my body, my decision, none of your business" pro-choice fanatics that want no limits on when they can murder. If I have to error, I would prefer it be on the side of giving someone a chance at life rather than letting them get snuffed out simply because mommy didn't bother to take the necessary precautions. Often times mommy had a chance to prevent the perceived need of an abortion. An aborted baby never has that chance. If we never find that middle ground (which I doubt we will) of when it should be allowed and when not, this debate will occur forever. The extremists on both sides are what is preventing reaching that compromise.

 

You and I agree in full. Never did I mean to attack you personally, but just a general feeling of self-righteousness amongst the Religious Right when it comes to issues such as abortion, gay marraige, and just about everything controversial with religious tie ins.

[Enhance]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

 

What an ego it takes to think you can decide what is right for other people while having no prior knowledge of the position they are in.

 

I agree with you view on abortion, I really don't think it should be done. I think it's inhumane and immoral, but I'm not the person making the decision--I have no knowledge of the forces driving that decision. So who am I, or who are we as people to understand and decide what is right for people in situations to which we are not privy of--that we can have no idea of understanding? My religious views have no pull in how I view abortion. You're no more or less a person to me if you get an abortion early on in the process, I can't possibly understand why you did it, and I can't say if put under the same circumstances that I would make a different choice.

 

The self-righteousness a lot of pro-life people show is indescribable--I really can't put a word to how it makes me feel.

This fits well with my ideas on abortion, as well.

 

Whle I agree with JJ in the sense that society should set reasonable boundaries for what is legal and what isn't, "society" allows abortion up to a certain point in time. In fact, if my information serves correctly, most abortions happen within the first 14 weeks - some states allow abortions until the 24th week. This time frame coincides well with the fact that conscience isn't developed until the 24th to 28th week of gestation. Our laws say it's OK to kill a human being until they develop a conscience.

 

Whether this should be changed or not is, of course, why people argue. But what about rape? How many people on this board can say they honestly wouldn't consider abortion if they were a woman and they were raped? I have no problem admitting I would probably want an abortion. I didn't choose to have the child and I shouldn't be forced to live the consequences. People who get abortions often get them because it's a mistake and they don't want it. A natural counter would be to allow abortions in rape situations. How do you sort out the liars? People would say they'd been raped in order to have an abortion. Provide proof of a rape kit test? We already know how difficult it is to prove rape, and how many people don't come forward or get a rape kit done because of their shame.

 

Although I still find abortion morally wrong, I believe people have the choice to decide whether a baby is right for them or not, regardless of the circumstances.

[HuskerShark]

Do you actually equate abortion to a miscarriage? One is caused by natural circumstances or various unknown or uncontrollable reasons and the other is a deliberate action to kill or prevent life. You can wonder all you want about what those unfortunate souls should be asking God but it has nothing to do with allowing other humans to knowingly end a life. My reasons for opposing most abortions has relatively little to do with my religous beliefs and a whole bunch to do with my sense of justice and the protection of the most vulnerable and innocent lives. Dying of natural causes and being murdered are nowhere near the same thing. What an ego it takes to think you can decide who is not worthy of life.

 

What an ego it takes to think you can decide what is right for other people while having no prior knowledge of the position they are in.

 

I agree with you view on abortion, I really don't think it should be done. I think it's inhumane and immoral, but I'm not the person making the decision--I have no knowledge of the forces driving that decision. So who am I, or who are we as people to understand and decide what is right for people in situations to which we are not privy of--that we can have no idea of understanding? My religious views have no pull in how I view abortion. You're no more or less a person to me if you get an abortion early on in the process, I can't possibly understand why you did it, and I can't say if put under the same circumstances that I would make a different choice.

 

The self-righteousness a lot of pro-life people show is indescribable--I really can't put a word to how it makes me feel.

This fits well with my ideas on abortion, as well.

 

Whle I agree with JJ in the sense that society should set reasonable boundaries for what is legal and what isn't, "society" allows abortion up to a certain point in time. In fact, if my information serves correctly, most abortions happen within the first 14 weeks - some states allow abortions until the 24th week. This time frame coincides well with the fact that conscience isn't developed until the 24th to 28th week of gestation. Our laws say it's OK to kill a human being until they develop a conscience.

 

Whether this should be changed or not is, of course, why people argue. But what about rape? How many people on this board can say they honestly wouldn't consider abortion if they were a woman and they were raped? I have no problem admitting I would probably want an abortion. I didn't choose to have the child and I shouldn't be forced to live the consequences. People who get abortions often get them because it's a mistake and they don't want it. A natural counter would be to allow abortions in rape situations. How do you sort out the liars? People would say they'd been raped in order to have an abortion. Provide proof of a rape kit test? We already know how difficult it is to prove rape, and how many people don't come forward or get a rape kit done because of their shame.

 

Although I still find abortion morally wrong, I believe people have the choice to decide whether a baby is right for them or not, regardless of the circumstances.

 

The whole rape thing is a difficult situation, but I can honestly say that abortion would never even cross my mind in that situation, but that's me.

[knapplc]

People use the rape example a lot in defending abortion - incest, too. I would love to know the percentages of abortions that are performed because the woman is a rape/incest victim, and the percentage that are performed for the sake of convenience.

 

I'm guessing the latter would be well over 75% of the instances, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if rape/incest doesn't account for less than 5% of performed abortions.

[Lil' Red]

I'm not fond of the idea of abortion but I agree with Enhance that it should be allowed until the 24th week of pregnancy. I believe that up until that point, we need to trust the mother to make a responsible informed decision based on her assessment of the situation. While I find this unpleasant, I do not feel that it is within my right to judge someone else's reasoning on such an intricate decision. We also need to take into consideration the profound negative consequences of outlawing abortion. Often the resulting child will live a miserable dysfunctional life, the parents will have to suffer the burdens of going through an unwanted pregnancy, the state will have to take on the extra load of caring for more children, the legal system will be required to deal with increased crime rates, and society will have to deal with the higher crime rate and pay increased tax loads to deal with these issues.

[strigori]

To say nothing of the fact that just because something is illegal it does not ceases to exist. Abortions were preformed before Roe vs Wade, they just also tended to be as deadly for the woman.

 

Add the idea that most of the recent laws that have been written(and keep getting struck down in court) lately would require the police and/or a grand jury investigation into every miscarriage. Talk about adding insult to injury.