The Religious Discussion of 2012

[knapplc]

If things are getting old in the church, I have no problem renovating them. I don't think it needs to be all gold plated or marble, but if things are falling apart, they need to be replaced.

 

I remember at St. Wenceslaus, they spent money to make the parking lot bigger and get new air conditioning system. I have absolutely no problems with them spending money to renovate things in the schools for the students. I would think you would want your children's schools looking nice, also. It makes the learning environment more conducive if the students are comfortable.

 

I agree with this. Certainly maintenance and safety are a proper thing to be spending money on. And there's no reason a church has to look like a hovel, so making it nice and decorating it is no problem. My issues is with the heaps of gold, jewels, antiquities, etc that are being hoarded. I don't see any reason for such things.

[strigori]

Interesting post on reddit today-

 

The part of the bible rich republicans don't like to read. Matthew 19:21-24

 

21 Jesus answered,“If you want to be perfect,go,sell your possessions and give to the poor,and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come,follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this,he went away sad,because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples,“Truly I tell you,it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.

24 Again I tell you,it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

 

I imagine rich democrats don't like reading that one either. Of course there is probably much less chance a democrat would have cause to read the Bible.

 

 

 

I don't know? Just feeling ornery today, must be the springlike weather.

Just going to go for the deflection?

 

The rich lefties are more apt to support and behave like the lessons Jesus preaches than the rich righties who tend to blame the poor for everything.

 

If you really look at the policies of Dems vs GOP and then line them up with that Jesus preaches which side do you think lines up closer to the Christian ideals? Love thy neighbor, help the poor, and care for/heal the sick were always at the forefront of Jesus' activities.

You're sure free to feel that way but, at the risk of looking totally ridiculus, you might want to temper some of your unfounded and unproven bias and prejudice. I always figured a persons charitable giving had a lot more to do with the person than with their political affiliation. I really don't know what others give to charity but I do know one "rich righty" that gives plenty and I am fairly confident, more than most.

 

IMO, there is a huge difference between personal charitable giving and government mandated wealth redistribution. I thought part of the lefts problem with Christians and religion in general was keeping it out of our government. You want to complain about that but at the same time brag about how the lefts policies line up better with Christian ideals. Seems you are just another partisan player that wants to have your cake and eat it too. I enjoy giving to charities of my own choosing but I despise it when the government demands it of me and decides how it will be spent (wasted). How about we leave the Christian principles and WWJD out of government and at the personal level where it belongs. It's pretty darn easy to commandeer other peoples money, spend some of it on worthy causes that helps garner votes for you, and then try to claim the higher moral ground. That game doesn't work with me.

 

And while we're on the subject of the Catholic church hording wealth that could be put to better use feeding and housing the poor, can someone name some organizations that do more in that regard than the Catholic church? Seems a little counterproductive to me to hold the Catholic churches feet to the fire for something they do a much better job of than most. Look at what they do on the local level rather than just focusing on some of the excesses of Vatican City and you will see a different picture.

I think you have misunderstood my statements.

 

I had no comment about the churches hoarding money, my comments were in regards to political policy.

 

I'm not 'trying to have my cake and eat it too' I'm calling large parts of the GOP hypocrites. I'm saying the policies of the GOP do not fall in line with the teachings of Jesus. I do not need to belive in Jesus, or the Christian God to have social views that may coincide with what Jesus would have stood for. There is some good advice in the Bible, treat others how you want to be treated, helping people when you have the means, to whom much is given much is expected. Just because there is some good advice does not mean its all correct.

 

What I see though is the same party that likes to thump the Bible and talk about how much they all follow Jesus fighting for policy that amounts to 'me me me me me me me' and 'screw the poor, the rich are who matter most.' Equality (I'm not talking even splits of all money, thats insane, I'm talking pay the same percentage of income as taxes, all income, money is money I don't give a rip what the sorce is) is not 'redistribution of wealth.' The GOP likes to call it that, but its not.

 

Universal health care would actually free employers of quite a bit of cost. The left is for it, the Catholic Church is for it, the GOP is not. The same people, like Santorum and Gingrich, who claim to follow Jesus so closely are vehemently opposed to this. Do not preach to me about God/Jesus then turn around and support laws and policies that go opposite what those teachings focus on. That makes you a hypocrite. If an athiest supported the same policies it would not make him a hypocrite, because he is not professing to a life philosophy that should run counter.

[carlfense]

If things are getting old in the church, I have no problem renovating them. I don't think it needs to be all gold plated or marble, but if things are falling apart, they need to be replaced.

 

I remember at St. Wenceslaus, they spent money to make the parking lot bigger and get new air conditioning system. I have absolutely no problems with them spending money to renovate things in the schools for the students. I would think you would want your children's schools looking nice, also. It makes the learning environment more conducive if the students are comfortable.

It looks like they want approximately $4.9 million. One of the big ticket items is an artificial turf playing field. I think that's a pretty good example of the issues that I have with the project.

 

I'm fine with them spending their money on whatever they want to spend it on. That said, I can think of a few things that could use millions of dollars of funding that better line up with Christian principles than Astroturf and gilded statuary.

 

Making things "nice" is one thing. Nice doesn't have to mean opulent. What I have seen in Fremont and at SVdP is closer to opulent than nice.

[Ratt Mhule]

If things are getting old in the church, I have no problem renovating them. I don't think it needs to be all gold plated or marble, but if things are falling apart, they need to be replaced.

 

I remember at St. Wenceslaus, they spent money to make the parking lot bigger and get new air conditioning system. I have absolutely no problems with them spending money to renovate things in the schools for the students. I would think you would want your children's schools looking nice, also. It makes the learning environment more conducive if the students are comfortable.

It looks like they want approximately $4.9 million. One of the big ticket items is an artificial turf playing field. I think that's a pretty good example of the issues that I have with the project.

 

I'm fine with them spending their money on whatever they want to spend it on. That said, I can think of a few things that could use millions of dollars of funding that better line up with Christian principles than Astroturf and gilded statuary.

 

Making things "nice" is one thing. Nice doesn't have to mean opulent. What I have seen in Fremont and at SVdP is closer to opulent than nice.

 

Artificial turf for what?

[JJ Husker]

Maybe I've been sheltered in the Catholic churches I have visited. I would not classify any in my area of northern Colorado as opulent. Most are kept up and comfortable but some could use some improvements. In fact, the nicest one I can recall being in the last ten years was in Lincoln. They have been trying to build a Catholic high school in our area for numerous years but have not been successful in raising funds yet. But I know for a fact that Catholic Charities spends a ton of money helping the poor and immigrants in our area. The funny thing about churches and religions is that they are made up of human beings. People are not infallible. They can be be hypocrites, greedy, etc. I fail to see how the actions of few or some should reflect poorly on all within any group. The message I hear in church every week is to help the poor, treat others how you would like to be treated, don't judge lest ye be judged, etc. The thing I don't quite get is why the church and people who attend them seem to be held to a higher standard than non-religious non-church going people. Whether any of us do good or we fail to live up to expectations should not be blamed on an institution that encourages you to do the right thing.

[Enhance]

How about we leave the Christian principles and WWJD out of government and at the personal level where it belongs

Unfortunately, politicians use their faith to gain popularity among the masses. Many people view religious politicians as men with sound morals who will do what the people want. It's a farce, but people eat that crap up because they don't know any better. It panders directly to their target voting population (the older generation) because they know that's the vote they need to win. They don't care so much about the vote of my 22-year-old self, even though I'm probably better educated and have more well-rounded views than the target voters.

 

People are often to quick to judge a candidate by what he says, rather than what he has done.

[Landlord]

I always laugh when people say something along those lines... "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of your political office, okay?"

 

 

If you really live by your faith, you can't separate it from your job or any other area of your life, as it is your foundation for life.

[Excel]

I always laugh when people say something along those lines... "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of your political office, okay?"

 

 

If you really live by your faith, you can't separate it from your job or any other area of your life, as it is your foundation for life.

That's understandable. Maybe you'd prefer "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of my life." It's essentially saying the same thing because your statement implies that they'd use their religious beliefs in executing the duties of their office which, being political in nature, would affect my life.

 

It's an easy enough principle to illustrate by simply turning the issue around on its head... How would you feel if a Muslim President and Congress were elected and then proceeded to enforce halal eating standards, require modesty and the sequestration of women and so on and so on based purely on their religious beliefs? It would suck and be totally unfair. That's why our laws should be based on universal, natural, and rational principles not each of our own varying religious beliefs.

[Landlord]

I always laugh when people say something along those lines... "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of your political office, okay?"

 

 

If you really live by your faith, you can't separate it from your job or any other area of your life, as it is your foundation for life.

That's understandable. Maybe you'd prefer "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of my life." It's essentially saying the same thing because your statement implies that they'd use their religious beliefs in executing the duties of their office which, being political in nature, would affect my life.

 

It's an easy enough principle to illustrate by simply turning the issue around on its head... How would you feel if a Muslim President and Congress were elected and then proceeded to enforce halal eating standards, require modesty and the sequestration of women and so on and so on based purely on their religious beliefs? It would suck and be totally unfair. That's why our laws should be based on universal, natural, and rational principles not each of our own varying religious beliefs.

 

I don't disagree with that at all. I personally feel that people of heavy conviction in their faith should stay away from public office. I would hate those scenarios you mentioned, as I'm sure a lot of minorities dislike Christian leaders making laws based on my beliefs.

[Excel]

I always laugh when people say something along those lines... "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of your political office, okay?"

 

 

If you really live by your faith, you can't separate it from your job or any other area of your life, as it is your foundation for life.

That's understandable. Maybe you'd prefer "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of my life." It's essentially saying the same thing because your statement implies that they'd use their religious beliefs in executing the duties of their office which, being political in nature, would affect my life.

 

It's an easy enough principle to illustrate by simply turning the issue around on its head... How would you feel if a Muslim President and Congress were elected and then proceeded to enforce halal eating standards, require modesty and the sequestration of women and so on and so on based purely on their religious beliefs? It would suck and be totally unfair. That's why our laws should be based on universal, natural, and rational principles not each of our own varying religious beliefs.

 

I don't disagree with that at all. I personally feel that people of heavy conviction in their faith should stay away from public office. I would hate those scenarios you mentioned, as I'm sure a lot of minorities dislike Christian leaders making laws based on my beliefs.

We agree on most things landlord...I'm only quoting you because its midnight and your posts happen to be the ones exercising my brain tonight, no quarrel here

[Landlord]

I always laugh when people say something along those lines... "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of your political office, okay?"

 

 

If you really live by your faith, you can't separate it from your job or any other area of your life, as it is your foundation for life.

That's understandable. Maybe you'd prefer "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of my life." It's essentially saying the same thing because your statement implies that they'd use their religious beliefs in executing the duties of their office which, being political in nature, would affect my life.

 

It's an easy enough principle to illustrate by simply turning the issue around on its head... How would you feel if a Muslim President and Congress were elected and then proceeded to enforce halal eating standards, require modesty and the sequestration of women and so on and so on based purely on their religious beliefs? It would suck and be totally unfair. That's why our laws should be based on universal, natural, and rational principles not each of our own varying religious beliefs.

 

I don't disagree with that at all. I personally feel that people of heavy conviction in their faith should stay away from public office. I would hate those scenarios you mentioned, as I'm sure a lot of minorities dislike Christian leaders making laws based on my beliefs.

We agree on most things landlord...I'm only quoting you because its midnight and your posts happen to be the ones exercising my brain tonight, no quarrel here

 

 

I've noticed a trend as well. Do you identify as Christian? I don't think you actually made that point clear or not!

[Excel]

I always laugh when people say something along those lines... "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of your political office, okay?"

 

 

If you really live by your faith, you can't separate it from your job or any other area of your life, as it is your foundation for life.

That's understandable. Maybe you'd prefer "Let's keep your religious beliefs out of my life." It's essentially saying the same thing because your statement implies that they'd use their religious beliefs in executing the duties of their office which, being political in nature, would affect my life.

 

It's an easy enough principle to illustrate by simply turning the issue around on its head... How would you feel if a Muslim President and Congress were elected and then proceeded to enforce halal eating standards, require modesty and the sequestration of women and so on and so on based purely on their religious beliefs? It would suck and be totally unfair. That's why our laws should be based on universal, natural, and rational principles not each of our own varying religious beliefs.

 

I don't disagree with that at all. I personally feel that people of heavy conviction in their faith should stay away from public office. I would hate those scenarios you mentioned, as I'm sure a lot of minorities dislike Christian leaders making laws based on my beliefs.

We agree on most things landlord...I'm only quoting you because its midnight and your posts happen to be the ones exercising my brain tonight, no quarrel here

 

 

I've noticed a trend as well. Do you identify as Christian? I don't think you actually made that point clear or not!

 

I certainly do, not a good one but I try.

[walksalone]

I admire if you have faith, but keep it to yourself. I don't care about what you believe in, why you want me to believe in it, or the bad things that'll happen to me if I don't.

 

Why should you care if people are open about their faith? This is the same thing with people who hate certain TV shows and want them off the air - if you don't like it, don't watch it. Change the channel. It's as simple as that.

 

There are channels on cable that are 24/7 religion. Bully for them. I don't watch them, but I don't begrudge them the air time. Let them practice their faith. Let them tell me I should be Christian/Buddhist/Muslim/whatever. I don't have to listen to them if I don't want to, and nobody is chasing me down the street shoving a Koran/Bible in my face.

 

I've never understood this thing where people say or insinuate that religion is being "shoved down my throat." No, it isn't. In 99.99% of every situation, you are able to change the channel, leave the room, ignore the conversation, whatever.

 

Growing up in a small town in western S.D., I didn't have the opportunity to "change the channel". You either were in church on Sundays or Wednesdays, or you were looked down up to some degree. There's a difference between being open about your faith, and passing judgement on people because they don't believe what you do. I've never bothered anyone about my beliefs. The catholic priest I almost beat the ass off of because he called my grandfather a heathen because he was a tribal elder and medicine man, or the fact my family members that have gone to schools administrated by religious figures, and were beaten for speaking their native language, I guess thats the .001%. I guess those reasons don't qualify me for having religion pushed upon me.

[carlfense]

Artificial turf for what?

Playing fields.

[carlfense]

Maybe I've been sheltered in the Catholic churches I have visited. I would not classify any in my area of northern Colorado as opulent. Most are kept up and comfortable but some could use some improvements. In fact, the nicest one I can recall being in the last ten years was in Lincoln. They have been trying to build a Catholic high school in our area for numerous years but have not been successful in raising funds yet. But I know for a fact that Catholic Charities spends a ton of money helping the poor and immigrants in our area. The funny thing about churches and religions is that they are made up of human beings. People are not infallible. They can be be hypocrites, greedy, etc. I fail to see how the actions of few or some should reflect poorly on all within any group. The message I hear in church every week is to help the poor, treat others how you would like to be treated, don't judge lest ye be judged, etc. The thing I don't quite get is why the church and people who attend them seem to be held to a higher standard than non-religious non-church going people. Whether any of us do good or we fail to live up to expectations should not be blamed on an institution that encourages you to do the right thing.

I've been in normal Catholic churches as well. In fact, I was at the Holy Name fish fry a few weeks ago. That church reminds me of the one that I attended as a child.

 

Anyways, the two that I've been around recently (other than Holy Name) definitely fall into the opulent/overdone category. St. Pat's cost around $8.5 million back in 2001 and SVdP is asking for ~$5 million in donations for expansion/artificial turf.