The Religious Discussion of 2012

[Mavric]

People use the rape example a lot in defending abortion - incest, too. I would love to know the percentages of abortions that are performed because the woman is a rape/incest victim, and the percentage that are performed for the sake of convenience.

 

I'm guessing the latter would be well over 75% of the instances, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if rape/incest doesn't account for less than 5% of performed abortions.

Couldn't agree more. I also think this is one major problem with the "discussion" - rape and incest are brought up at a far higher frequency than they actually occur.

[bhamHusker]

The problem is that an ever-increasing number of anti-abortion crusaders refuse to even consider allowances relatively frequent medical necessities, let alone for rare and abhorrent situations like rape or incest. I don't think anyone on the choice side of the argument would assert that rape or incest are frequent occurrences (I imagine they account for far less than the 5% Knapp guesses). Rape and incest exceptions get attention because they seem to most rational people to be precisely the situation where everyone should be able to agree that an abortion is acceptable, yet you have extremists saying that a woman should be forced to carry to term the biological consequences of her own rape. Hell, we even have idiots like Santorum saying that the woman should embrace it as a blessing from his misanthropic overlord of choice - a god-given silver lining to that dark rapey cloud.

[JJ Husker]

Part of the problem with abortion is due to the fact that so very few are done because of rape, incest, or the mothers life being in danger. These are the ones that most reasonable people can agree on but the numbers of these cases are extremely small. That leads me to think (and I assume rightly so) that the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed simply as a cure for lack of personal responsibility or as a measure of extreme selfishness. This is exactly why I feel the default position on abortion should be that it is not acceptable. The choice crowd wants the default position of murdering babies to be acceptable regardless of a persons reasons. I find that quite abhorrent. If well less than 5% are done for the reasons we agree on, should we really accept the needless killing of the other 95% as being the mothers choice? It is predominantly delayed birth control for irresponsible people.

[Lil' Red]

Part of the problem with abortion is due to the fact that so very few are done because of rape, incest, or the mothers life being in danger. These are the ones that most reasonable people can agree on but the numbers of these cases are extremely small. That leads me to think (and I assume rightly so) that the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed simply as a cure for lack of personal responsibility or as a measure of extreme selfishness. This is exactly why I feel the default position on abortion should be that it is not acceptable. The choice crowd wants the default position of murdering babies to be acceptable regardless of a persons reasons. I find that quite abhorrent. If well less than 5% are done for the reasons we agree on, should we really accept the needless killing of the other 95% as being the mothers choice? It is predominantly delayed birth control for irresponsible people.

 

So outside of rape, incest, and protecting the mother, you believe that there aren't any rational reasons to have an abortion? What about young teenagers who are oblivious to the implications of the consequences of their actions? Or mothers who unexpectedly lose or are deserted by their husbands? A multitude of reasons exist to have an abortion and we really can't fully comprehend all the variables in play behind each individual's decision.

[JJ Husker]

I didn't say there weren't rational reasons for all of these abortions but I think it should require a lot more than a rational reason to prevent or kill another human beings life. Heck, if the hurdle we have to clear for it to be acceptable to kill is only a rational reason, then I've got quite a list that is already prequalified. I will stand by my list of acceptable situations where I fell abortion is acceptable. So no, I do not feel your added examples, while being rational reasons, are acceptable to end anothers life. We don't have the right to kill a life outside the womb and I see no difference, other than location, for killing one inside the womb. It's not a decision we should be allowed to make.

[Lil' Red]

I didn't say there weren't rational reasons for all of these abortions but I think it should require a lot more than a rational reason to prevent or kill another human beings life. Heck, if the hurdle we have to clear for it to be acceptable to kill is only a rational reason, then I've got quite a list that is already prequalified. I will stand by my list of acceptable situations where I fell abortion is acceptable. So no, I do not feel your added examples, while being rational reasons, are acceptable to end anothers life. We don't have the right to kill a life outside the womb and I see no difference, other than location, for killing one inside the womb. It's not a decision we should be allowed to make.

 

Your reasoning makes sense if you construe the fetus to be the equivalent of a human being. I believe that although the fetus develops into a child, that there is a distinguishable difference between the two early on in the process. While I find abortion unpleasant, I feel that the mother should have the right to make such a decision within a reasonable time frame before the development process is very far underway. Also, as I mentioned earlier, outlawing abortion has a negative effect on society that isn't often considered.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

I didn't say there weren't rational reasons for all of these abortions but I think it should require a lot more than a rational reason to prevent or kill another human beings life. Heck, if the hurdle we have to clear for it to be acceptable to kill is only a rational reason, then I've got quite a list that is already prequalified. I will stand by my list of acceptable situations where I fell abortion is acceptable. So no, I do not feel your added examples, while being rational reasons, are acceptable to end anothers life. We don't have the right to kill a life outside the womb and I see no difference, other than location, for killing one inside the womb. It's not a decision we should be allowed to make.

 

Your reasoning makes sense if you construe the fetus to be the equivalent of a human being. I believe that although the fetus develops into a child, that there is a distinguishable difference between the two early on in the process. While I find abortion unpleasant, I feel that the mother should have the right to make such a decision within a reasonable time frame before the development process is very far underway. Also, as I mentioned earlier, outlawing abortion has a negative effect on society that isn't often considered.

 

Freedom of choice.

[JJ Husker]

Hey I'm not going to throw a fit over it. I'm just telling you my personal feelings on the matter. If somebody wants to have an early term abortion because it will make their life easier, I'm not going to march on Planned Parenthood or blow up a clinic. But you're wasting your time if you're trying to convince me to say that's ok. I feel it is wrong and I would more than likely support legislation that would try to prohibit most abortions. I don't think we will ever get to the point where that is likely to happen so you don't have much to worry about.

[Lil' Red]

Hey I'm not going to throw a fit over it. I'm just telling you my personal feelings on the matter. If somebody wants to have an early term abortion because it will make their life easier, I'm not going to march on Planned Parenthood or blow up a clinic. But you're wasting your time if you're trying to convince me to say that's ok. I feel it is wrong and I would more than likely support legislation that would try to prohibit most abortions. I don't think we will ever get to the point where that is likely to happen so you don't have much to worry about.

 

I respect your opinion and recognize this is a subject where perceptions are rarely altered but I wanted to contribute to the discussion anyway. As far as the future of abortion, I would not be in the least bit surprised if it is prohibited in the near future as its support has hit record lows.

[Enhance]

I mentioned rape because it's where the abortion topic becomes grayest. I think most people would sympathize with a rape victim and understand them considering abortion. If abortion were to be outlawed exempting extreme cases, how do we sort out liars and those who really want it? I think it's completely absurd to entirely outlaw abortions, and I've given my reasoning behind this several times, reasoning which conveniently coincides with Lil' Red's point of view. I think it all comes down to whether you see a difference between a human being and an undeveloped fetus. Fetuses do not have a conscience until the 24th-28th gestation week, and I draw humanity at this line. Until this point, I believe a woman or couple should have the freedom to choose whether a baby is right for them, regardless of outlying circumstances.

 

Again, I stand my ground in believing abortion is morally wrong, but I'm incapable of telling someone they don't have a choice early on.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

The problem with outlawing abortion, with the exception of specific cases is, like you said Enhance, it begs the issue of who is really telling the truth and who is lying just to get around the law. To figure that out requires invading rights to privacy.

 

Abortion seems like an all or nothing situation. Either you outlaw it all, or you let it happen. Letting it happens seems to be causing fewer problems than not allowing it at all.

[knapplc]

I didn't say there weren't rational reasons for all of these abortions but I think it should require a lot more than a rational reason to prevent or kill another human beings life. Heck, if the hurdle we have to clear for it to be acceptable to kill is only a rational reason, then I've got quite a list that is already prequalified. I will stand by my list of acceptable situations where I fell abortion is acceptable. So no, I do not feel your added examples, while being rational reasons, are acceptable to end anothers life. We don't have the right to kill a life outside the womb and I see no difference, other than location, for killing one inside the womb. It's not a decision we should be allowed to make.

 

Your reasoning makes sense if you construe the fetus to be the equivalent of a human being. I believe that although the fetus develops into a child, that there is a distinguishable difference between the two early on in the process. While I find abortion unpleasant, I feel that the mother should have the right to make such a decision within a reasonable time frame before the development process is very far underway. Also, as I mentioned earlier, outlawing abortion has a negative effect on society that isn't often considered.

 

Freedom of choice.

 

For everyone but the baby being killed.

[huskerjack23]

Almost baby.

 

It can also be considered a parasite.

 

Not having an abortion, I'm dispensing of the matter that makes me fat for nine months.

[JJ Husker]

Almost baby.

 

It can also be considered a parasite.

 

Not having an abortion, I'm dispensing of the matter that makes me fat for nine months.

 

Huskerjack23 is almost human.

Some would equate him to a parasite.

I'm not committing murder, I'm simply ridding myself of an annoyance.

 

How is my take on this substantially different from yours?

[Enhance]

Almost baby.

 

It can also be considered a parasite.

 

Not having an abortion, I'm dispensing of the matter that makes me fat for nine months.

 

Huskerjack23 is almost human.

Some would equate him to a parasite.

I'm not committing murder, I'm simply ridding myself of an annoyance.

 

How is my take on this substantially different from yours?

Huskerjack23 has consciousness - a fetus does not until a certain point. I think that is substantially different.