Victory Formation - Take the loss or fight until the end?

[Enhance]

I'm surprised this topic has avoided discussion on here. For those of you who haven't heard about it, here's a link to what I'm talking about.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpC7AvXA2Rw

 

As the video shows, Schiano coached his Buccaneer players to crash the Giants' offensive line at the end of the game to try and get the ball back. Although there's nothing technically illegal about what they did, it's somewhat like this - just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it.

 

I see both sides to the issue. From the Giant's perspective, they were expecting the Bucs to do what most NFL teams would do - accept the kneel down. I think what Schiano did was, in fact, a cheap shot. Although a sound scheme technique, it probably wasn't the right call. And from the Buc's perspective, they're only down a score, and who knows what can happen in a few seconds. The game was all but over, but it wasn't officially over. The Giants should treat a victory formation like a regular play and not allow the defense to try and get a quick turnover.

 

My issues with this are two-fold - first, in most of these situations, the losing team accepts the kneel down. They don't fight the play too hard, therefore the offensive line wasn't expecting anything to happen. There could have been a serious injury. That said, when they saw the Bucs line up as they did, they should have expected what was coming next.

 

Second, I listened to Eric Mangini and Tim Hasslebeck talk about this earlier, and I agree with what they said - it sets a bad precedent AND makes the Bucs a target. From now, everybody is going to gun for them like they gunned for the Giants, and opposing offensive linemen are going to play a little dirtier at the end of the game because of what the Bucs have done.

[308_Husker]

If there is still time on the clock, then the game should still be played normally. IMO

[mrandyk]

They should have saved this for when there was enough time on the clock to score if they actually caught the other team off guard and forced the fumble.

[HuskerfaninOkieland]

With :05 left on the clock, there was more to it than just trying to get the ball back. And when Schiano says something to the effect "I guess you just don't do that in the NFL"....he's a dumbass for trying to play stupid. He knows damn well that's a busch league move. You don't do that at any level.

[Count 'Bility]

bullsh#t. Ive argued since it happened. It's a 60 minute game folks. Maybe if youre down by 2 scores fine. but one possession in the field position they were in? A little fumble and a lob to the endzone, you never know what could happen. 60 minutes. I have no problem with it.

[HuskerFanChuck]

I agree with accountability. You play for sixty minutes. You have to plan for that. If you're not expecting it, that's on you for not preparing your guys. If I've got time on the clock, and I'm within a score, why wouldn't I do anything in my power to get the ball back? Stranger things have happened in football than a turnover on a kneeldown. Sorry, not buying the argument that it's a bush league move. Schiano doesn't get paid to play pattycake with the other team. He gets paid to win football games, and that's what you try and do, by any legal means possible within the game. It's not forbidden by the rules. Kneeldowns are an advantage to the possessiing team. It doesn't mean, in any way shape or form, that as the defense, I have to accept it.

[Enhance]

I think this would have been exponentially worse had the Giants been up by, say, two or three scores with five seconds left. It'd be impossible to score enough points to win in that time frame. Given it was a one possession game with five seconds left, though, I don't think the Giants should have kneeled down. They should have played it out because if I'm another team I want to win.

 

Now that it's happened, though, I think Schiano started something he didn't really expect. I think the Bucs are going to be somewhat of a target now any time they're in victory formation, or any time an opponent is in victory formation, regardless of the score. Everybody in the NFL saw what they did, and most people are thinking "Yeah I see why you did it but...."

 

As long as he's OK with that..

[VA Husker Fan]

I think this would have been exponentially worse had the Giants been up by, say, two or three scores with five seconds left. It'd be impossible to score enough points to win in that time frame. Given it was a one possession game with five seconds left, though, I don't think the Giants should have kneeled down. They should have played it out because if I'm another team I want to win.

 

Now that it's happened, though, I think Schiano started something he didn't really expect. I think the Bucs are going to be somewhat of a target now any time they're in victory formation, or any time an opponent is in victory formation, regardless of the score. Everybody in the NFL saw what they did, and most people are thinking "Yeah I see why you did it but...."

 

As long as he's OK with that..

I don't get that logic. The safest thing by far for the team ahead to do is to take the kneel down, especially with less than a one score lead. Back in the 70s, the Giants ran a real play and fumbled and the Eagles ran it in for the win. Your linemen just need to be alert and blocking.

 

I don't have a problem with the defense trying to play the game if there was a chance, and a one score game leaves a chance. If you don't want your star QB hurt, put in your backup to take the victory formation snaps. But, one might argue, that would risk a fumble and could cost them the game? Aha! So there really is a chance for the defense here, so they should be trying.

[Enhance]

I don't get that logic. The safest thing by far for the team ahead to do is to take the kneel down, especially with less than a one score lead. Back in the 70s, the Giants ran a real play and fumbled and the Eagles ran it in for the win. Your linemen just need to be alert and blocking.

 

I don't have a problem with the defense trying to play the game if there was a chance, and a one score game leaves a chance. If you don't want your star QB hurt, put in your backup to take the victory formation snaps. But, one might argue, that would risk a fumble and could cost them the game? Aha! So there really is a chance for the defense here, so they should be trying.

I think you misunderstand me, but that's my fault. I didn't mean they should have done a play and risked turning the ball over - I meant to say they should have done a kneel down but expected a defensive effort. In a one score game, how can you really expect the opposing team to not come in there and try and make a play, you know? That's why I don't completely fault Schiano for what he did, because if it had been successful, they could have had a chance to win.

 

That's why I also think this situation would have been far wore if the Giants had been winning by a couple of scores. In that scenario, I would have found this a very, very stupid thing to do.

[HuskerfaninOkieland]

bullsh#t. Ive argued since it happened. It's a 60 minute game folks. Maybe if youre down by 2 scores fine. but one possession in the field position they were in? A little fumble and a lob to the endzone, you never know what could happen. 60 minutes. I have no problem with it.

I would agree with your argument IF there was more than :05 left on the clock. Even if there had a been a fumble and even IF the Bucs were able to recover, by the time the refs stopped the clock, there would have been no time left. That's why I think it's a bullsh#t play on the part of the Bucs. If there was :15, I could understand the idea behind the bumrushing the o-line. But the Bucs knew there no chance in hell of regaining possession with enough time left on the clock to run a play...unless you're the Uteruses...playing the B12 Championship

[The Dude]

It was a dick move. It wasn't about trying to get the ball back. It was about Shiano being butthurt his team pissed away a game they should have won.

 

Accept defeat like a man.

[Count 'Bility]

My favorite is chris dooshy carter on an espn show ranting and raving (maybe it was one of the other dooshes) about how you dont do this stuff in the NFL, what comes around goes around. Whell, what are they gonna do, beat'em again? Rush them if theyre kneeling? when theyre WIINNING.

 

I just love that term. What comes around goes around. oh god no.

[NUance]

The Giants shouldn't expect the other team to give up if there is time left on the clock. They once lost a game in this exact same situation. (See, Miracle at the Meadowlands. LINK)

[clyde40]

Most people's arguments are that it didn't show class. Well I say that's a load of crap if giving up is losing with class. You never know what can happen, look at the music city miracle (I don't want to start an argument over whether or not it was a forward lateral or not). Yes it's five seconds, but who cares we complain if football players quit on a play or something because they don't play to the whistle and now we complain because a team tries to play until the final whistle?

[sd'sker]

Most people's arguments are that it didn't show class. Well I say that's a load of crap if giving up is losing with class. You never know what can happen, look at the music city miracle (I don't want to start an argument over whether or not it was a forward lateral or not). Yes it's five seconds, but who cares we complain if football players quit on a play or something because they don't play to the whistle and now we complain because a team tries to play until the final whistle?

was that even a forward lateral, though?

 

also, and more seriously, why should the offense decide when the game is over? if there is a chance, you do what you can. if nyg were up by more than 8, then yes it is over. but tb were within a score.