SCOTUS and Gay Marriage

[huskerenner]

So,O.J. was telling the truth?

[carlfense]

Wait... So, if someone says they are gay under oath, that proves they are gay? If I and my lawyer don't think they are, how do we prove they are lying under oath?

 

I guess nobody ever lies under oath.

I think that you're going to need to define "proof." Are you talking proof in a legal sense or proof in some objective sense? Or proof in a personal sense?

 

Those are all very different things. I was talking about the first type of proof. Which are you referring to?

 

Put another way, how do you think that anything is proven? How would you prove that you're a business owner?

[carlfense]

So,O.J. was telling the truth?

Yeah, and coffee is hot!

[StPaulHusker]

Wait... So, if someone says they are gay under oath, that proves they are gay? If I and my lawyer don't think they are, how do we prove they are lying under oath?

 

I guess nobody ever lies under oath.

I think that you're going to need to define "proof." Are you talking proof in a legal sense or proof in some objective sense? Or proof in a personal sense?

 

Those are all very different things. I was talking about the first type of proof. Which are you referring to?

 

Put another way, how do you think that anything is proven? How would you prove that you're a business owner?

Aren't there documents to prove someone is a business owner? I could have sworn I had to fill out Tax ID forms and register my company with the state and county where it is located.

[Ulty]

 

Also, all of those can be proven. How does someone prove they are gay?

 

You may be overthinking it a bit, but that is an interesting question, one that would eventually have to be defined by the courts perhaps.

 

Even though participation in a protected class typically is required for a discrimination claim, I assume that any such laws would generalize "sexual orientation," meaning we are all protected (even though it is less likely that one of us would be discriminated against for being straight). But the burden of evidence would mostly involve how the hiring decision was made. If the employer can provide a legitimate non-discriminatory reason for not hiring the person, and the plaintiff doesn't have further evidence to refute that, it's over.

 

Of course, there may be various levels of complications, but I used to work in discrimination claims, and the vast majority of disparate hiring claims went nowhere fast because an applicant typically cannot provide proof to show why the employer made a hiring decision, even if they were aware of the applicant's age, race, etc.

 

If your hiring practices are sound, it shouldn't even come down to proving whether or not some actually is gay or not. And most discrimination claims are processed at the administrative level, not in court under oath. If you get that far, some other things have probably gone against you in the process.

 

But yeah, there may be some legal fees involved if you have an attorney prepare your response. Sorry about that.

[BigRedBuster]

Wait... So, if someone says they are gay under oath, that proves they are gay? If I and my lawyer don't think they are, how do we prove they are lying under oath?

 

I guess nobody ever lies under oath.

I think that you're going to need to define "proof." Are you talking proof in a legal sense or proof in some objective sense? Or proof in a personal sense?

 

Those are all very different things. I was talking about the first type of proof. Which are you referring to?

 

Put another way, how do you think that anything is proven? How would you prove that you're a business owner?

 

 

It would be extremely easy for me to produce documents from tax and legal records to prove I'm a business owner. To my knowledge, there is nothing of the sort to prove someone is gay.

 

The proof I am talking about is proof that would prove in a legal sense that you are gay if you are suing me for discrimination and I don't even think you are gay.

 

Just saying so under oath doesn't come anywhere close to proving it.

[carlfense]

Aren't there documents to prove someone is a business owner? I could have sworn I had to fill out Tax ID forms and register my company with the state and county where it is located.

Those are forgeries. Just like the liar on the witness stand. Now what?

[carlfense]

It would be extremely easy for me to produce documents from tax and legal records to prove I'm a business owner.

The documents that you have are forgeries. You're a front for the real owner.

 

The proof I am talking about is proof that would prove in a legal sense that you are gay if you are suing me for discrimination and I don't even think you are gay.

 

Just saying so under oath doesn't come anywhere close to proving it.

That's not for you to decide.

[StPaulHusker]

Aren't there documents to prove someone is a business owner? I could have sworn I had to fill out Tax ID forms and register my company with the state and county where it is located.

Those are forgeries. Just like the liar on the witness stand. Now what?

I'm going to go put on my tin foil hat and think about this one for a bit.

[carlfense]

If your hiring practices are sound, it shouldn't even come down to proving whether or not some actually is gay or not.

[carlfense]

Aren't there documents to prove someone is a business owner? I could have sworn I had to fill out Tax ID forms and register my company with the state and county where it is located.

Those are forgeries. Just like the liar on the witness stand. Now what?

I'm going to go put on my tin foil hat and think about this one for a bit.

Don't overthink it . . . if the evidence is sufficient to convince the fact finder it's proof.

[BigRedBuster]

It would be extremely easy for me to prove certain documents are not forgeries.

 

I understand what you are saying about sound hiring practices. That takes care of 99.9 situations. But, I have been involved in legal situations before in business that would boggle your mind when before the situation arose, you would think my azz was covered. So, I tend to be a little skeptical on these things.

[BigRedBuster]

Aren't there documents to prove someone is a business owner? I could have sworn I had to fill out Tax ID forms and register my company with the state and county where it is located.

Those are forgeries. Just like the liar on the witness stand. Now what?

I'm going to go put on my tin foil hat and think about this one for a bit.

Don't overthink it . . . if the evidence is sufficient to convince the fact finder it's proof.

 

 

Again though....what proof are you going to put in front of the judge or jury that proves your client is gay? Just his word under oath?

[StPaulHusker]

If your hiring practices are sound, it shouldn't even come down to proving whether or not some actually is gay or not.

It works both ways doesn't it? Would the person being interviewed need to be of sound mind not to get pissed they didn't get the job from a perceived feeling they had that the business owner discriminated against them and then proceeded to sue?

[carlfense]

Again though....what proof are you going to put in front of the judge or jury that proves your client is gay? Just his word under oath?

Your incredulity makes it sound like you think that this is unusual. Do you think that relying on sworn testimony is rare?