Reaction to Coke's "America The Beautiful" ad

[knapplc]

Two things:

 

#1 I just did a search through my entire Bible software which includes essentially every English translation - "homosexuality is a sin" yielded zero results. Do you mind giving the scriptural reference to where that is an absolute statement written in there?

 

#2 Do you consider someone that is only attracted to the same sex, not attracted to the opposite sex, but not marrying, not entering into relationships and not engaging in sexual activity to be in sin?

 

 

Please quote Book, Chapter and verse where Jesus stated homosexuality is a sin. Do the same for the Disciples if you have time.

 

If you're basing your belief that Jesus condemned homosexuality as a sin based on his adherence to Judaic law, you also must believe that Jesus believed divorce was against God's law, attending church within two months of giving birth to a girl is against God's law... in short, everything proscribed in Leviticus, which is a rather lengthy list. Drinking wine in church? Oops - big problem there.

 

You're starting to put words into my mouth.

 

I didn't say Jesus said it. I said, as a Jew in good standing, he was governed by Jewish law...which means, he had to believe it. As for his view on divorce, he stated that emphatically and exactly with intent and purpose BECAUSE it was a topic that was questioned by Jews...homosexuality was not a topic of hot debate...no one debated that it was sinful in accordance to Jewish law. You can read about what he said in Matthew 19:3-6. I'm not ascribing ANY idea or belief to Jesus that isn't already there in accordance with Jewish law.

 

As for the disciples, here you go:

 

Romans 1:24-27

1 Timothy 1:9-11

Jude 7

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 

 

 

And what are we to do if we find ourselves practicing the sins above (as well as other sins...not just the one we're debating)

 

Ephesians 4:17-24 which, summing it up, says to stop doing the sin and turn away from it.

 

Also as Christians, we're supposed to follow 1 Peter 2:15-18 and treat all people with respect whether they are Christian or not. This is why I have no problem whatsoever with gay marriage, homosexuality in general, or any of the other things the Bible considers a sin...those things happen and I have to worry about my own behavior and beliefs before those of others...I have to, as a Christian, make sure I'm doing what I feel is right. I'm not a judge of men and women's hearts as God is and I've been told to treat others with respect. So that's what I try to do.

 

PS: Just realized I forgot to address a few points: Wine in church...I don't drink wine in Church and I don't take communion...this doesn't apply. Leviticus: The laws there are great to look at to see what Jesus and his disciples were governed by...also to get an idea of what God required for his chosen people. However, Jesus' started a new covenant with his followers...thus we are not governed by Jewish law. We only have what the disciples and Jesus himself said, did, and believed to model ourselves after which is the same point I've been trying to make in all of these posts. As for #2 above...adultery is a sin according to the Bible...in your example, no adultery has been committed so, I'd say no. Not sure if you're trying to trap me or not..

 

 

In every Bible I've ever read, Romans, 1st Timothy, and 1st Corinthians (2nd Corinthians too, for that matter) were all attributed to Paul, not the disciples.

 

Jude is not universally attributed to Jude the Apostle, and may have been written by any number of Judes of the time. It is the weakest of the canonical New Testament books.

 

Jesus never addressed homosexuality as a sin or not a sin, making your absolute claims very much not absolute.

 

If that's what you believe, groovy - but it's not what everyone believes, nor do those beliefs seem to jive with Jesus' own teachings (which, I presume, trumps Paul's epistles).

 

The issue isn't if homosexuality is a sin (by most Christian definitions, it is), the issue is whether that particular sin makes it impossible to be Christian.

 

Ephesians 4: 17-24 says, not to homosexuals, but to all sinners, to put off their old lives and to stop living sinfully. Have you done that? No? Well, good news - you're just like every other human who's ever existed (except Jesus), and although you don't do what Ephesians 4: 17-24 tells you to do, you're no better and no worse than any other sinner out there. And that includes the homosexuals. You are not different than the homosexuals you claim cannot be Christian, you are exactly like them. You are no less sinful - you just commit different sins. Your claim that they cannot be Christian is a claim that you cannot be Christian, because all sin separates you from Christ.

 

You are claiming to be adrift in the ocean, yet able to dry yourself off because you have a towel. You cannot become unwet, towel or no towel.

 

But wait - you're forgetting 2 Corinthians 5:17-19, where you've become a new creature through the sacrifice of Christ. And not just you, but all sinners - including the homosexuals. And because the sinning homosexuals, like the sinning you, have accepted Christ, they are, like you, new creatures, without sin, ready to do God's work on earth. That towel is like a super Sham-Wow!, able to soak up an ocean of sin, take it upon itself, and leave you dry. Along with your homosexual brothers and sisters.

 

Regarding the PS - not sure why you're trying to move the goal posts now. Yes, Christ came to fulfill the law, and once fulfilled, he created a New Covenant with mankind. That covenant? John 3:15 - "...that everyone who believes in him shall have eternal life." That "everyone" includes the sinners (that's you) and the sinners (that's me) and the sinners (that's the homosexuals) and the sinners (that's the adulterers) and the... well, you get the idea. That "everyone" is not exclusive of those who don't commit Levitican sins.

 

And why does that apply to homosexuals, and why does that allow them to be Christian? John 3:17 - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

[Landlord]

#2 Do you consider someone that is only attracted to the same sex, not attracted to the opposite sex, but not marrying, not entering into relationships and not engaging in sexual activity to be in sin?

 

 

 

 

And what are we to do if we find ourselves practicing the sins above (as well as other sins...not just the one we're debating)

 

Ephesians 4:17-24 which, summing it up, says to stop doing the sin and turn away from it.

 

 

Can you still answer this please?

 

It's in the PS section of my reply but I'll answer here:

 

Living with someone of the opposite sex without being married to them, even if not having sex with them...in my opinion, is not following the Bible. Jesus said that looking at a woman longingly can become akin to fornication (paraphrasing of course) and in Job 31, Job has eyes for no other woman except his wife. Having longing looks, thoughts, touches, etc. before marriage is tempting but disrespectful of the vow of marriage. Hebrews 9 speaks about remaining clean spiritually along with bodily when in service to God. To me, this means respecting the woman by not living with her before marriage...because it would be tempting for both of us to have sex before marriage....and if you put yourself in those situations, you're just tempting things.

 

 

Granted, each person is different. If it were me living with someone out of wedlock, I wouldn't want to be the one tripping up other Christians who look at my example. So, maybe you're a rock and you can resist the temptation...that's great and good on ya. But others are looking at you and what you're doing and it may influence how they look at those who are 'Christian'. The scripture that applies here is Romans 15:1 "We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves." In other words, we shouldn't think that just because we're strong enough to resist any temptation doesn't mean we should put ourselves in those situations where our consciences is tried...because we're not thinking of those spiritually weaker than ourselves and the example we set.

 

I hope this answers your question.

 

 

It doesn't. Let me try it again:

 

If someone lives with lifelong, genetically-influenced attraction and temptation towards something wrong, but never acts on it, are they being sinful?

[carlfense]

Since it is not universally attributed, you cannot use it to refute either...it cancels out.

That's not how it works . . .

 

Never claimed to be holier than thou or anyone else. You're putting words into my mouth. Just because I'm a sinner doesn't make the Bible wrong btw

Actually . . . that's exactly what you were claiming when you said the following:

I am both conservative and Christian. . . . To illustrate this, for example, when someone says they are both Gay and Christian...to me, that is logically impossible based on my beliefs which are rooted Biblicaly to what was taught to Christ and what Christ believed in.

[knapplc]

Wait wait wait - devnet, do you sin?

[knapplc]

I'd say heterosexuals live with a lifelong, genetically influenced attraction/temptation toward the opposite sex...so homosexuals probably do too.

 

So you believe God made them this way?

[carlfense]

So you're saying he can use it to refute my stance, but when I call out the opposite it's not applicable.

Not what I intended. If it's not credible it can't be used to support a position.

 

Actually, no...that's not claiming I'm better than others. It's giving label to what I consider myself. I also gave an example of my beliefs without passing judgement on those who don't believe like I do.

Whatever gets you through the day I guess. Can you actually say with a straight face that claiming to be a Christian and then claiming that Gays cannot be Christian isn't a claim of being "holier than thou or anyone else"?

[Landlord]

 

It doesn't. Let me try it again:

 

If someone lives with lifelong, genetically-influenced attraction and temptation towards something wrong, but never acts on it, are they being sinful?

 

 

Nope. I'd say heterosexuals live with a lifelong, genetically influenced attraction/temptation toward the opposite sex...so homosexuals probably do too. If they never act on it, they aren't actively sinning. There is advice for that very subject in the Bible.

 

 

Okay. I agree with you, but pay attention to your words:

 

when someone says they are both Gay and Christian...to me, that is logically impossible

 

You phrased it as someone "being" gay in nature. You said NOTHING of "if someone acts in a homosexual way." These are inconsistent statements from you.

 

Please be careful with your words. If someone is gay, it means they are attracted to the same sex. So, per your last post, you CAN be both Gay and Christian. When you phrase it the way you originally did, you come off as an insensitive bigot, which I don't believe you are, but can entirely see why people would think so, because you are saying that someone's essence, rather than their actions, is sinful.

[Landlord]

I only claimed that gays that continue to practice the Bible defined sin of homosexuality cannot be Christian.

 

 

when someone says they are both Gay and Christian...to me, that is logically impossible

 

 

Again. No, you didn't. That is not what you claimed.

 

You claimed that gays cannot be Christian. Because they are gay.

 

Maybe it's not what you meant. But it's what you said. Own it and move on.

[Landlord]

I only claimed that gays that continue to practice the Bible defined sin of homosexuality cannot be Christian.

 

 

when someone says they are both Gay and Christian...to me, that is logically impossible

 

 

Again. No, you didn't. That is not what you claimed.

 

You claimed that gays cannot be Christian. Because they are gay.

 

Maybe it's not what you meant. But it's what you said. Own it and move on.

 

 

 

We're in a semantic debate now...

 

 

If they stop homosexual acts, does that mean they are still gay?

 

 

Homosexuality (from Ancient Greek ὁμός, meaning "same", and Latin sexus, meaning "sex") is romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender. As an orientation, homosexuality refers to "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectionate, or romantic attractions" primarily or exclusively to people of the same sex. "It also refers to an individual's sense of personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in acommunity of others who share them."^[1][2]

[BigRedBuster]

I only claimed that gays that continue to practice the Bible defined sin of homosexuality cannot be Christian.

 

 

when someone says they are both Gay and Christian...to me, that is logically impossible

 

 

Again. No, you didn't. That is not what you claimed.

 

You claimed that gays cannot be Christian. Because they are gay.

 

Maybe it's not what you meant. But it's what you said. Own it and move on.

 

 

 

We're in a semantic debate now...

 

 

If they stop homosexual acts, does that mean they are still gay?

 

yes

[zoogs]

Straight people are allowed to act on their sex inclinations if they get married and that's cool with Jesus and Christianity and all, but gay people can't? Wow, being born gay kinda sounds like a bum deal.

 

Is it Christian and unsinful to tell people whether they are being Real Christians^TM or not? I thought that was God's territory, and ours was just to love. Maybe I'm wrong. My understanding of the religion as an outsider isn't nearly as strong as knapplc's -- good posting, by the way I feel rather uneducated in this conversation.

[strigori]

Straight people are allowed to act on their sex inclinations if they get married and that's cool with Jesus and Christianity and all, but gay people can't? Wow, being born gay kinda sounds like a bum deal.

So by the logic train, one of two things must be true. Either

A - "God" made a mistake making gay people as they are genetically wired to be "sinners" which according to Christian dogma, is impossible. or

B - "God" is a sick, sadistic bastard who gets off on torturing people by dropping them into a no win situation.

[knapplc]

yes

 

Since this wasn't addressed to you, I'll skip over it as your reply is outside of the debate.

 

 

It's a definite sign you're in over your head when you have to resort to an answer like this. Oi.

 

 

The question was:

 

If they stop homosexual acts, does that mean they are still gay?

 

Since I've been in this debate all day I'll answer, and the answer is obviously yes. Being gay isn't simply based on performing sexual acts with the same gender, it's who you love, who you're attracted to, who you feel comfortable being with.

 

If you stop having sex with women, does that mean you're no longer heterosexual? Of course not. The concept is absurd.

[zoogs]

I added 'marriage' in because otherwise 'straight people being able to act on their sexual inclinations' would cover some other things not regarded as permissible by Christians, I guess. I think Landlord made the original post -- sorry, I'm responding to some stuff I read on the last page, and not to you or the discussion you've been having in particular there.

[knapplc]

Wait wait wait - devnet, do you sin?

 

Of course, everyone does.

 

I only claimed that gays that continue to practice the Bible defined sin of homosexuality cannot be Christian. Just like anyone else who continues to willfully sin. If someone who willfully sins and shows through their actions that they want to continue sinning thinks they're a Christian...they aren't. THAT is my claim and I can say it with a straight face without thinking I'm better than anyone else.

 

It is so difficult to debate against such a wholly illogical position, but I'll try.

 

The two bold responses are incompatible. You, by your own definition, are not Christian. You sin, you continue to sin by the definitions of sin set forth in the Bible by your own admission, therefore you cannot be Christian - again, by your definition, not by anything supported by the Bible.

 

For you to be Christian your answer to my question of "do you sin?" had to be "No." Because if you're sinning, and you're not stopping, you must be doing it on purpose. If you claim you cannot stop sinning, for any reason whatsoever, and yet claim to be a Christian, you are lying to yourself - again, by your own definition.

 

If homosexuality is a sin, and you sin, and homosexuals continue to sin, and you continue to sin, and by their continuation of sin they cannot be Christian, there can be no logical explanation for how you could also be Christian if you are continuing to sin.