Return of Segregation

[carlfense]

Here's the question that I have that has never been answered: What is it with Christianity and homosexuality? There are a whole host of things that are sins in the eyes of God that no one gives a crap about. Adultery, frowned upon, but there's no law against it. Premarital sex? Same. Swearing, working on Sundays, etc, etc. But being gay? An abomination that we must fight with stupid laws that we know are unconstitutional and will never stand, but are really only meant to degrade and belittle the offenders!

I don't think that Christianity is the problem . . . it's simple bigotry with Christianity being used as the excuse.

 

Just like how a lot of racists are so focused on illegal immigrants (and let's be more specific . . . they're talking about the brown ones) because they're breaking the law.

 

Fair enough, and I didn't intend to imply that all Christians are anti-gay, as I know for a fact that they aren't.

I think that I understood what you meant. I've noted that weird focus a few times myself . . .

 

Christianity (and other religions for that matter) has been used to justify some pretty awful things throughout history. Slavery, segregation, war, etc.

 

 

Fortunately, progress marches on.

[BigRedBuster]

Here's the question that I have that has never been answered: What is it with Christianity and homosexuality? There are a whole host of things that are sins in the eyes of God that no one gives a crap about. Adultery, frowned upon, but there's no law against it. Premarital sex? Same. Swearing, working on Sundays, etc, etc. But being gay? An abomination that we must fight with stupid laws that we know are unconstitutional and will never stand, but are really only meant to degrade and belittle the offenders!

 

 

I have no idea on an answer to your question. It is frustrating as a Christian to see this. Here's the problem from my point of view. I believe there are one heck of a lot more Christians that feel the same as me and others on this board than there are who believe the way it is portrayed in public like as it pertains to this law. No, I don't have actual statistics to back it up. Just going off of a life of living around other Christians.

[Junior]

 

What crosses my mind though is, is there any situation where a business should be able to refuse business to someone without fear of legal action?

 

Bartenders are obligated to refuse service to someone they think is drunk. First example off the top of my head.

[BigRedBuster]

 

What crosses my mind though is, is there any situation where a business should be able to refuse business to someone without fear of legal action?

 

Bartenders are obligated to refuse service to someone they think is drunk. First example off the top of my head.

 

 

Ok....When I was a contractor, I can remember a few times where I honestly just didn't feel comfortable doing business with a certain person. Do I have the ability to make that judgement? Examples:

 

I once was on a quote and the older gentleman was one of the nicest guys I could meet. We had a very pleasant time with him and his wife going through what they wanted done. I thought to myself that I would love to do business with these people. THEN.....as I was walking to the car, the guy's attitude totally changed. It was almost like he was a totally different person. It was so strange that while driving back to my office, I decided there was no way I could trust that I was going to get paid for the work once it was done. So, I never returned the guy's calls and never gave him a quote. He ended up writing me a letter threatening that he was going to report me to the BBB because I didn't want to do business with him.

 

Do I have the ability to make this judgement?

 

Another situation.....

 

One day a woman walks into my office and after about 30 seconds, I realized it was a transvestite/cross dresser.... At first I just kind of found it funny and continued trying to sell the person. But, the longer I was around the person, I realized that this person was really unstable mentally. No, it didn't have anything to do with the person's sexual orientation. The person was simply a wacko mentally. So, again, I really didn't trust that I was going to get paid. Luckily, the person didn't buy from me so I never had to deal with it. But, if I treated that person differently as far as payment terms or price on the quote due to the threat of possibly not getting paid, should I be concerned about begin sued?

 

I've stated on here before my distaste for selling projects to lawyers because of past experiences with them. Do I have the ability to increase the price of a project due to the expected extra hassle and expense dealing with them? (Sorry to offend all lawyers on here....meh....sue me ).

 

NONE of these have anything to do with me being a Christian but it is a simply business decision based on experience in the market place and my judgement on certain situations.

 

Do I still have the ability to make these judgements? I'm telling you that business people make these judgements every day across America.

[StPaulHusker]

This doesn't surprise me much as there were instances where pharmacists were not filling prescriptions because of their religious beliefs against birth control.

 

 

I would like to see some reverse discrimination for something like this. I want to hear of a gay business owner refusing to serve people because of their "religious" belief about homosexuality. Imagine the sh#t storm that would create!

[zoogs]

The legal question is interesting. I would've just said, at first glance, come on. The Constitution protect rights for all, only to allow companies to strip away any of them at their leisure and to the extent that majority indifference ("market deciding") allows...?

 

...but I guess it's more complicated than that.

[Junior]

 

 

[Junior]

 

What crosses my mind though is, is there any situation where a business should be able to refuse business to someone without fear of legal action?

 

Bartenders are obligated to refuse service to someone they think is drunk. First example off the top of my head.

 

 

Ok....When I was a contractor, I can remember a few times where I honestly just didn't feel comfortable doing business with a certain person. Do I have the ability to make that judgement? Examples:

 

I once was on a quote and the older gentleman was one of the nicest guys I could meet. We had a very pleasant time with him and his wife going through what they wanted done. I thought to myself that I would love to do business with these people. THEN.....as I was walking to the car, the guy's attitude totally changed. It was almost like he was a totally different person. It was so strange that while driving back to my office, I decided there was no way I could trust that I was going to get paid for the work once it was done. So, I never returned the guy's calls and never gave him a quote. He ended up writing me a letter threatening that he was going to report me to the BBB because I didn't want to do business with him.

 

Do I have the ability to make this judgement?

 

Another situation.....

 

One day a woman walks into my office and after about 30 seconds, I realized it was a transvestite/cross dresser.... At first I just kind of found it funny and continued trying to sell the person. But, the longer I was around the person, I realized that this person was really unstable mentally. No, it didn't have anything to do with the person's sexual orientation. The person was simply a wacko mentally. So, again, I really didn't trust that I was going to get paid. Luckily, the person didn't buy from me so I never had to deal with it. But, if I treated that person differently as far as payment terms or price on the quote due to the threat of possibly not getting paid, should I be concerned about begin sued?

 

I've stated on here before my distaste for selling projects to lawyers because of past experiences with them. Do I have the ability to increase the price of a project due to the expected extra hassle and expense dealing with them? (Sorry to offend all lawyers on here....meh....sue me ).

 

NONE of these have anything to do with me being a Christian but it is a simply business decision based on experience in the market place and my judgement on certain situations.

 

Do I still have the ability to make these judgements? I'm telling you that business people make these judgements every day across America.

 

I see what you mean, and I don't have a good answer for that. Someone in a contract business should have a little more leeway in terms of choosing clients, where someone at the grocery store shouldn't. If you can pay, you can pay. If that makes sense.

[BigRedBuster]

 

What crosses my mind though is, is there any situation where a business should be able to refuse business to someone without fear of legal action?

 

Bartenders are obligated to refuse service to someone they think is drunk. First example off the top of my head.

 

 

Ok....When I was a contractor, I can remember a few times where I honestly just didn't feel comfortable doing business with a certain person. Do I have the ability to make that judgement? Examples:

 

I once was on a quote and the older gentleman was one of the nicest guys I could meet. We had a very pleasant time with him and his wife going through what they wanted done. I thought to myself that I would love to do business with these people. THEN.....as I was walking to the car, the guy's attitude totally changed. It was almost like he was a totally different person. It was so strange that while driving back to my office, I decided there was no way I could trust that I was going to get paid for the work once it was done. So, I never returned the guy's calls and never gave him a quote. He ended up writing me a letter threatening that he was going to report me to the BBB because I didn't want to do business with him.

 

Do I have the ability to make this judgement?

 

Another situation.....

 

One day a woman walks into my office and after about 30 seconds, I realized it was a transvestite/cross dresser.... At first I just kind of found it funny and continued trying to sell the person. But, the longer I was around the person, I realized that this person was really unstable mentally. No, it didn't have anything to do with the person's sexual orientation. The person was simply a wacko mentally. So, again, I really didn't trust that I was going to get paid. Luckily, the person didn't buy from me so I never had to deal with it. But, if I treated that person differently as far as payment terms or price on the quote due to the threat of possibly not getting paid, should I be concerned about begin sued?

 

I've stated on here before my distaste for selling projects to lawyers because of past experiences with them. Do I have the ability to increase the price of a project due to the expected extra hassle and expense dealing with them? (Sorry to offend all lawyers on here....meh....sue me ).

 

NONE of these have anything to do with me being a Christian but it is a simply business decision based on experience in the market place and my judgement on certain situations.

 

Do I still have the ability to make these judgements? I'm telling you that business people make these judgements every day across America.

 

I see what you mean, and I don't have a good answer for that. Someone in a contract business should have a little more leeway in terms of choosing clients, where someone at the grocery store shouldn't. If you can pay, you can pay. If that makes sense.

 

 

But, these situations are what makes business people nervous when reading about court cases like this. And, a contract business was just in a famous law suit over this issue. The photographer who didn't want to photograph the gay wedding.

 

Now, I know the situation there was that the photographer admitted it was due to religious beliefs. HOWEVER, let's say that isn't the case. Let's say I am a photographer when the transvestite/crossdresser person came into my office and wanted me to photograph their wedding. I'm uncomfortable doing the wedding project due to my statement above where I honestly just didn't trust that I would ultimately get paid for the project and really just don't want anything to do with it.

 

BUT.....when the person finds out, they claim I don't want to do it because they are a transvestite hires a lawyer and sues me. What they are alleging is the farthest from my mind when I make the decision but that isn't the way it is portrayed in court or in the media.

[Ulty]

 

I don't think that Christianity itself is the problem . . . it's simple bigotry with Christianity being used as the excuse.

 

It's similar to racists who devote so much attention to illegal immigrants (and let's be more specific . . . they're talking about the brown ones) because they're breaking the law.

[Moiraine]

Not sure how I feel about this.

 

On one hand I find segregation of any sort, and the idea that a business wouldn't serve or employ homosexuals/racial/religious minorities, to be disgusting while on the other hand I don't think the government, state or federal, should dictate integration or open mindedness. An employer or merchant should be allowed to conduct business as they please more or less and if they choose to be bigoted so be it, let the market decide.

I'll pretend I can see some tiny bit of a good point in the 2nd part, but did you actually read what the link said? I don't see how you could have read it and not be sure how you feel about it. It says that homosexuals can be denied care in hospitals and by police officers.

[JJ Husker]

BRB- As you know, business owners make these business decisions all the time. If it's a job you really don't want to do or feel there would be problems collecting when it's done, then we logically jack up the price or refuse to bid it to begin with. I understand that the wrong party may misinterpret that as discriminating against whatever status (gay, transvestite, race, etc....) they may wish to claim. I view that as just another risk of being in business. Personally I don't think we, as business owners, can worry about those rare cases as long as we are making sound business decisions and not really hiding some prejudice.

 

I have increased my bid price and/or changed payment terms on certain projects for various reasons. It was always done in a manner to help reduce my exposure when I felt they were a higher risk. If I don't feel the person/entity can/will eventually pay, then the terms go to 50% or 75% down or even 100% up front. Likewise, I have refused to even give a bid on quite a few projects for all sorts of reasons. The customer seems flaky or is just plain too stupid to be involved with what they are trying to have me do, if I've had bad business experiences with them before, etc. are some examples. I usually tell them we are just too busy to be able to handle it or that their job doesn't meet our capabilities. On two occasions I have really burned the bridge and told them my business would never do business with theirs and proceeded to tell them why. One specific situation comes to mind; we had built some equipment for a systems integrator based on their specs and we were very clear to stipulate what we would not be responsible for. The guy I was dealing with was dishonest (read lying f'ing scumbag) and made arbitrary deductions and withheld final payment. It was pretty much a sh#t sandwich. Well the same company, and guy, call me to do another project with them. I told that guy directly I wouldn't piss in his mouth if his stomach was on fire. He still sent the project over for us to bid. I sent him a quote....I made up a number that was ridiculously high and put the words "f#*k you" in the payment terms. Haha- now that's how you burn a bridge. But, it needed to be burnt.

 

Anyway, we can't worry about what some idiots may dream up to file a lawsuit over. Heck, McDonalds wouldn't even be able to sell coffee.

[BigRedBuster]

JJ.....I understand what you are saying and that is the approach I basically take. However, cases like this do make me stop and pause at least a little. I love your story. It rarely happens....but sometimes it feels good to be able to tell a customer to go F**ck themselves.

[Creighton Duke]

Vote with your wallet. Don't like that a company would refuse service, (or do anything that you don't like, really) don't shop there. Like-minded people think the same way? Problem is instantly solved.

[JJ Husker]

Vote with your wallet. Don't like that a company would refuse service, (or do anything that you don't like, really) don't shop there. Like-minded people think the same way? Problem is instantly solved.

 

Sounds good & simple too.......but won't be very effective, if any part of the goal is to eliminate discrimination, bigotry, oppression, or segregation. Probably would only set things back about 50 years and reinforce some peoples bigotry plus would require most everyone to choose a team. Personally I don't want to have to consider if my dry cleaner is gay friendly or gay hostile and I sure don't want them to have to post a sign on the door telling me their position on the issue.